1

(23 replies, posted in Episodes)

I can't believe you guys went this whole commentary and never brought up City Slickers, where Jack Palance plays the John Wayne part and middle aged yuppies replace the young boys learning to lead cattle across the range.

2

(38 replies, posted in Episodes)

I'm glad I listened to this commentary. Made me think about the subtleties of this movie more than I had. When I saw it, I went in knowing nothing but trusting the filmmaking pedigree. I spent the first hour waiting to get a handle on things and playing spot the Hanx. When things started coming together, I enjoyed finding the causality between eras, and after a while, it became clear to me as a series of stories of noble people standing against oppression in various forms across history.

Then there was another hour of movie, and I sat through the message that oppression is bad five more times. I GET IT, MOVIE, SLAVERY IS ALWAYS BAD.

I can appreciate better after this commentary that there is a subtlety in the variation of storytelling techniques, but when one of those techniques is just to tell you what they're trying to say, they kinda sacrifice their claims of subtlety.

Your milage may vary, and I liked them showing how art can inspire people across eras. It's a powerful idea, that ideas in the end are all we leave behind and that sometimes one story can change the world, but I don't think this is necessarily one of those stories.

3

(469 replies, posted in Episodes)

Part of the way I always describe this show to my friends is that I mention how you guys got started, all working in the effects industry. What about a name that references that?

Rendering Discussion
Post Rendering Conversation

Even when you're not talking about a movie in real time you're usually still talking about a movie that's already been made. When of picture's been locked, when the render is finished, what conversation can still go on? The kind you guys have.

4

(64 replies, posted in Episodes)

You guys never brought up the reason I was excited about this movie before it came out, which I guess was my own misinterpretation of the pre-production rumor mill, a medium I've since learned to ignore (mostly).

From stories I read at the time, Ridley Scott announced to the Hollywood money people, "I want to make a prequel to Alien. It isn't even going to have humans in it. Still, the name alone will mean box office gold. Give me all of the money." I was disappointed, because the fact that stuff like the space jockey are never explained is one of the things that makes the first film so fascinating. Then Ridley started actually making the movie and announced to the press, "Psych! It's not a prequel at all. It just explores some of the same ideas and also happens in space." I thought he actually had an original idea and got the thing green lit by playing off his past success, using the studio sequel obsession against itself and tricking them into funding original IP. The director of Alien and Blade Runner was about to show us a new vision of the future.

When the movie came out and reviews started to surface, I realized I had to ignore the whole thing. I might have enjoyed it more if I had seen it on a larger screen than my TV, but I think Avengers was out at the time, and I stand by my choice to see that one more times in the theater.

When I finally saw this movie, my expectations were lowered enough that I hoped to at least find something to like. At some point after the first act, I shrugged and asked the screen, "So?" But I never did figure out what the characters cared about or why I should care about any of them.

Good commentary though.

5

(30 replies, posted in Episodes)

Just checking, you guys are aware They Might Be Giants did an album called "Apollo 18" and didn't want to drag their names through the mud by associating it with this dumb movie, right?

The lyrics to "The Statue Got Me High" do seem appropriate though.

"The statue made me die/
It took my hand it killed me and it turned me to the sky"

http://youtu.be/mrc9siok3IU

6

(14 replies, posted in Episodes)

I spent a long time confused by the idea of the "high concept." It always seemed like it would be about the cerebral higher levels of storytelling. Then it finally dawned on me that it's just a story idea you can explain to someone who is themselves stoned out of their minds. That's a "high" concept movie.

7

(0 replies, posted in Creations)

For the first time in years, I have a computer that will edit video without struggling under the weight of even the simplest of tasks, so I took my new copy of imovie out for a test drive with a mashup of Ferris Bueller and WarGames. It seemed like a natural fit. They both have Matthew Broderick in roughly contemporary roles, and both feature scenes of him using a computer to cause mischief.

So Ferris and Cameron take the day off from school and almost start World War 3 — like you do. I was able to combine scenes from the two movies in an amusing and occasionally convincing way, while actually tying the whole thing together with a consistent character motivation.

It's not seamless, but I think it came out surprisingly well.

8

(32 replies, posted in Episodes)

Dorkman wrote:

For your own sake I'm going to be a dickhead and point out that this is not writing.  neutral

Thanks for the heads up. I wish it wasn't so important, and that words alone could present the story that I want to tell, but books are judged by their cover, so I'm just going to skip ahead... Hitler.

9

(32 replies, posted in Episodes)

So that's why they call him "The Amazing."

"Hey, Mike, did you see Ark?" I couldn't stop laughing.

These shows are fun. My one complaint about length is that I think the focus on making them multiples of thirty minutes is misplaced.

On a side note, this is one of the few episodes I've listened to, and I've heard every DiF, while sitting at my computer. I finally found a replacement for the job that paid my bills for the past few years, where the only good thing was that I could listen to podcasts (and sometimes hide in the back and leave comments from my phone). Then a couple weeks ago, my new job decided they couldn't pay me any more, so I'm pulling a Stephen King. I'm at the desk writing from 9 to 5. I have money until I don't have money, and when people pay me for writing, I get further from needing a "real" job again.

Today was listening to podcasts while designing the cover of the book I started four years ago, and even I say damn, Trey. You crazy.

Zarban wrote:
On the topic of Nosferatu, Invid wrote:

Actually they were sued.

Yeah, story copyright is pretty broad, covering structure and character as well as actual words. Sergio Leone also lost a suit over A Fistful of Dollars being a little too homage-y of Yojimbo.

I stand corrected on the legal precedent of Nosferatu, but I hear Kurosawa never had the rights to Red Harvest before Yojimbo ripped that story off.

Not to derail the discussion, but you guys brought up Star Wars as the one example of copyright forgiveness, and I wanna mention zombies real quick.

When vampires hit it big in popular culture with Dracula, that was a specific story that someone owned the rights to, so people had to respect that. Nosferatu is basically the same story, but they changed just enough not to get sued. Zombies never went through that. Night of the Living Dead was accidentally in the public domain from day one, so there was no reason for people not to rip off the idea and do whatever they wanted with it. Some of that stuff stuck, but the whole thing was kinda chaotic and leaderless, like the zombies themselves.

I'm working on a book right now, to be released under creative commons, that presents zombies in part of it as a kind of victory for creative freedom, because they evolved without creative limits the way Internet memes do today.

12

(27 replies, posted in Episodes)

Thanks for posting the ending. I actually just heard about the Star TreX-Men crossover novel that came up in there. http://io9.com/5873156/the-star-trek+x+ … -remembers

13

(16 replies, posted in Episodes)

Is it a coincidence you guys post this right before Plinkett posts his review? Hmm?

14

(14 replies, posted in Episodes)

So Leslie Caron was in Gigi, which was set in France and about French people and stuff and won a bunch of awards. Riding on the coat tails of that, she was also in a movie called Lili, which I highly recommend. It's about a girl who joins the circus and befriends a group of puppets after one of them talks her out of committing suicide. I think that's the one Trey was talking about here, and I can see why it might redefine who was in what union, since a big part of the film is just this girl hanging out with puppets.

Edited to add: Except I looked it up, and Lili was 5 years before Gigi, which messes with the whole timeline I had in my head. Still a good movie about puppets though.

15

(47 replies, posted in Episodes)

It was a roque mallet in the novel. Just a nitpick. When we did our stage version of The Shining last year, the character of Steven King was narrating and complained that any idiot can pick up an axe, and he was a genius for researching roque. Haha.

We did the whole show for laughs. In addition to playing the bartender, they slipped a giant foam costume over my head so I could stand behind the woman playing Danny and play Tony the giant finger. Imagine that.

16

(43 replies, posted in Episodes)

I think an interesting thing to do would be to put the entire saga in chronological order, all three movies (THREE!). That means "It belongs in a museum" cuts to the gong, showing the mercenary Indy has become due to his absent father figure. Any amount of tightening that could happen to that film would be nice, but the implied character arc would be throughout, allowing him to grow in responsibility, become a teacher like his dad and then, after hours of screen absence, he hears something happened to his estranged father.

We know Steven loves his daddy issue stories, and the degree to which Indy's a terrible surrogate (tribute of surrogates) father to Shortround plays into the larger arc of growing against his will in to the man that his father can respect. Then at the end, they ride into the sunset together. The End.

17

(17 replies, posted in Episodes)

I loved these books as a kid. They've continued to influence my sense of humor about the world to this day, and I carry the memory of them with me everywhere. On my phone, the little device I keep in my pocket from which I can access the largely apocryphal (or at least wildly inaccurate) knowledge of the internet, I have on the front in large friendly letters the words "Don't Panic." The devices that science fiction let us dream of for all those years are real, and people can use them to follow Charlie Sheen from anywhere. That's progress.

I'm fine with there not being a really big successful movie version of this story, because the things that make it so great require thought and intelligence to understand, and any version that would find mainstream success wouldn't ask people to imagine "a liquid that was almost, but not quite, entirely unlike tea."

The fact that this film is largely forgotten means knowing who Zaphod Beeblebrox is still kinda speaks to someone's character, which means writing his name in on the ballot for city council is still funny.

So now, having listened to the commentary and watched your little video, I can say that I still don't get what the joke was, but Trey has never looked better.

But seriously folks, the original story goes into a lot more detail about how and why the pods work. Part of the impact of the film may have been that unnerving sense that we don't even know all the rules of the situation, but the filmmakers would have had a back story to work from that they just left out. Modern movies still do this (WTF is a Balrog to those who haven't read LOTR?), but there's a better sense of what people need to know in order to pass fridge logic.

The story also has a much clearer allegory going on, so even if the filmmakers weren't aware of it, enough of the story came through on screen that the audience got it, and this film was supposedly one of the big influences on Night of the Living Dead a decade later.

19

(98 replies, posted in Episodes)

This is a bit of a retcon, but I interpret the end of the film as the character comic to believe in the supernatural. When he packs the gun, he talks about how he doesn't believe any of that stuff, but rather than being a skeptic at the end, he has to accept that these aren't just artifacts in some temple with booby traps, this is something real, a radio for talking to god. It's a character arc that takes a character from thinking he can overcome anything with brute force to a climax where he admits his own powerlessness, a strange choice and one that would never get made today.

20

(1,019 replies, posted in Episodes)

Feel sorry for you guys. I had to host the most recent Twilight at Bad Movie Night, and there's nothing even worth making fun of in those movies.

This is the io9 article about the alien designer of The Abyss, http://io9.com/#!5756209/never+before+s … -the-abyss

Glad they're not talking about Trey.

22

(30 replies, posted in Episodes)

You guys started off talking about the movie as a horror film, which is obviously not the case, but at some point someone used the word thriller. Yeah. See, the structure of thrillers gives away the mystery up front, a bomb under the table for the entire story, and then you have to watch and wait. There's a tradition of including a very patient character right in the story to set an example of how to watch. Here, Lecter will wait ten years to reveal where he left that body, just so he can use that as a ploy when he sees the opportunity.

It's a game. The narrative structure is playing with us, like Lector is playing with Clarice, deciding when to reveal what information.

I'm writing a thriller now, and the situations they set up to have one trainee solve every aspect of the crime strained my credulity, but the film uses so many great techniques to distract us. This isn't a genre that builds its meal on plot, and Demme is a master here because he's being like Kubrick, taking us on an emotional journey, just manipulating that tension all the way through, and it's good to hear that finally working for Teague.

Also I have to point out, Precious from the movie based on the novel Push by Saphire is only called Precious. Her real name is Clarice.

23

(22 replies, posted in Episodes)

Jeez, is McG really talking about doing 2 more of these? It's basically a prequel trilogy, since we already know how the whole thing turns out. Have we not learned our lesson on that one? Or, if they mess with causality to make some kind of "point" which this team wouldn't understand anyway, they destroy the whole inevitability paradox that made the original story so interesting. They're literally using time travel to go back in time and kill their own drama before it was ever born.

If this is the same writer as Surrogates, I have the terrible fear that he thinks these movies are actually brilliant and even worse, that there are producers out there who believe him.

Here, I had an idea while listening to the podcast. What they should have done is rip off the structure of the first movies, not the individual moments. In the story of the life of Kyle Reese, the terminators come out of nowhere and basically conquer the human race before they can mobilize. Reese doesn't know how to defend himself yet, but a mysterious figure appears to protect him. Go ahead and say "Come with me if you want to live," but this guy's kinda talking about himself, because the protector this time is John Connor.

Now we have character conflict, because he knows this is his dad, but he doesn't know how to tell him. Maybe Kyle's fifteen or something at this point, and who wants to saddle someone with that kind of information when they're just coming to grips with the fact that the world has been taken over by an army of evil robots.

Reese is frightened the same way Sarah was in the beginning. John is clearly crazy. Even regular gun-toting survivalists aren't known for their emotional stability, but getting raised from a baby not only to prepare for the apocalypse but then to become the savior of humanity can mess with your head. On the other hand, circumstances are starting to prove this particular nutjob absolutely right in his insanity. In the choice between dying at the hands of unstoppable killer robots and trusting a guy who just says he wants to help, Kyle starts to lean closer and closer to the man we met in the original movie. Not only that, he starts to see this older, protective, hyper-masculine badass like a father figure of his own.

What's he going to do when he finds out about their real relationship? Is that before or after John gives him that picture of his mother? We never knew how much information Kyle had before he went back, and we had no idea what kind of bond had ever formed between the two men. Seems like a pretty complex relationship to explore.

At the same time the familiar story beats of growing emotional connection during the escape from danger are repeating themselves like some kind of causality loop, the backdrop this time is totally different. The cops, for example, aren't dismissive of "cybernetic exoskeletons" when the evidence is walking the streets of LA shooting people with lasers and stepping on their skulls, if there are even any cops even left. Maybe the resistance is already a real thing, living in whatever hideouts they can find, scavenging resources and trying to unite as many survivors as they have contact with so that maybe someday there could be hope to rebuild the decimated human race.

Introduce to that scenario the first robots in rubber masks. We know what's coming. John knows it, but how can he that information out? What kind of confusion would that cause? How do we get to that triumphant third act, charging over the fields of our own dead to storm the gates of the MCP, the moment of victory we've been imagining since 1984, when we don't even know who's on our side?

There's four years of Battlestar Galactica to steal what works and avoid what doesn't about this setting, and with a new aspect of the paradox we already know and love, you're not invalidating or overwriting the preceding chapters, just exploring their implications the way that T2 kind of did and Aliens got exactly right. Who wrote those again? I'd vote for following in those footsteps for this project.

24

(11 replies, posted in Off Topic)

I just want to thank you guys for doing this show.

Ten months ago, my job transferred me to the night shift. It turned my life upside down in so many ways, but what I missed more than anything, which conflicted every week with my new schedule, was hanging out with my friends and making fun of movies -- er, shouting "constructive criticism" at the screen. I used my vacation time to keep going, but the job ruined the fun of it. On the other hand, they do let me listen to my iPod...

I found Down in Front because I follow the Pink Five production blog (and wait patiently for Vol. 3), where Trey mentioned it about six months ago. Again, thank you. This show kept me sane, at least as much as before. I've listened to every episode at least once, and it made a great refresher course for filmmaking and just general storytelling. I'm one of those guys who doesn't watch the movie with the commentary, but DiF has done so many I know so well (I don't need to have Star Wars in front of me to know every frame) and others I got more than enough of the first time, it doesn't seem to matter.

Then I could come to the message boards and keep the conversation going. I was back, talking about movies with friends... in my head.

I'm writing this because three days ago, I finally got my bosses to put me back on the day shift, and now that you've done Surrogates, the only movie I would watch for the first time with DiF turned on, we can all retire the show, satisfied that we've completed cinema. Yup, all done.

Thank you all,
    Tim Kay


...wait, you were kidding about that being the last show? And next week is Empire? Well shit, I still got ears. Bring it on. Down in front!

25

(26 replies, posted in Episodes)

I guess I get to be the guy who says there's more elements to a compelling story than the regularity of action beats. I expect characters with clear motivations and consistent, relatable views of the world, who don't suddenly get "space dementia." When science is involved, I hope for a treatment of it that at least appears to be true. Go ahead and have Reese tell me he doesn't understand time travel. I can't argue with that, but stopping to refuel on "Russian space station" doesn't even pass George Lucas logic. Why do they have extra fuel? Where did they get it? What deep space mission were the russians planning?

Anyway, the question also came up whether it's possible for an intelligent person to enjoy a movie like this. Absolutely. That's why I go to Bad Movie Night (www.darkroomsf.com/#bmnnow). A revolving group of hosts get microphones, but everyone is encouraged to mock. DIFers in the Bay Area should come down. I mention it in particular because I'm gonna be hosting Jaws: The Revenge coming up. I may not make fun of the movie, but I'm totally gonna dis the house it bought Michael Caine.