826

Re: Doctor Who is awesome, yeah?

BBQ wrote:

Eh, this feels a lot like nitpicking.

It mostly is. That's why I prefaced it saying none of it kills the episode.

The main problem is, there is no payoff. We have mysteries but we can guess what's going on. We just don't know the goal of the titular 'Heist'. Not knowing the goal, it's hard to care about it and we certainly don't spend time explaining it's importance or savoring the win. It's a bit of a slog for little reward.

This is discussed on a podcast I listen to: http://thedoctorwhorewatchpodcast.blogs … -time.html I love that you can read this as "the doctor whore watch podcast".


Boring Clarifications Show

I am never in favor of a "jumping away from the explosion" moment. We just didn't get to see a getaway: the loot was revealed and then we jump to after the job is done. I think it ruins the impact of the ending. Imagine how Tennant's Doctor might have been written: concerned, sad for their treatment, gently folding the teleporter into a hand with a soulful look...maybe saying something like "we're going to take you home now". That could be a moment that adds an emotional payoff to the whole thing. Instead, we are treated to distance walking away monsters. I didn't really care.

I also enjoyed the fact that the Doctor wasn't able to utilize the TARDIS.

As for the killing, I was referring to the detour to the security office. In the endless, reused Westworld hallway set, the monster is hunting all 4 of them but we cut to the Doctor and Clara in custody. This is moronic as they are not being interrogated and their deaths are ordered anyway.

The self-loathing disturbs me. I'm wondering if it plays into the 'find Gallifrey', 'why this face' and 'good man' stuff.

I found the time loop unnecessary. As far as I can tell, it is only there to make use of the phone and try to artificially make the story 'epic'. I really don't like someone trying to spice up a story by adding 'special' elements to it. A perfect example is the Red Hulk: http://robot6.comicbookresources.com/20 … rs-hammer/ Jeph Loeb had Tom Brevoort in an elevator once and asked how a bad guy could use Thor's hammer. A few years later, Jeph wants to make Red Hulk look cool so he uses both possibilities in a single fight, thinking: Red Hulk is badass, bro, he can take Thor's hammer! The same thing is happening here with the phone being called and the Doctor explicitly states how special it all is. I call it lazy not because it is being used as a crutch to a plot hole but because it is being used to create anticipation and excitement which will not pay off (ex: if it was the Doctor's dad calling for help, that would be completely justified).

I thought the level of technology for the "richest bank in the universe" should predict massive solar storms. We can do that now with days of warning. If you check the news you will hear warnings about solar flares every few years and those won't burn the surface of our planet. It seems silly the bank didn't see it coming. So much so that I thought it was some sort of big solar flare that would not threaten the planet but just mess up the computers and lock a bit. I was very surprised to see an evacuation.

Can the monster put back what he takes? I didn't think so. Because 'soup'.

Overall, I think we agree. It is flawed. But, it's in the right direction.

Last edited by Jp12x (2014-09-23 04:39:23)

I post because I care.
  -  -  -  -  -  -  -  -  -  -  -  -  -  -
"Feel free to flame me. I don't like Legends of Korra or Gravity, either."

827

Re: Doctor Who is awesome, yeah?

The Caretaker

The episode isn't broken. I hope we get more like this (maybe cut back on the soap opera).

I post because I care.
  -  -  -  -  -  -  -  -  -  -  -  -  -  -
"Feel free to flame me. I don't like Legends of Korra or Gravity, either."

Re: Doctor Who is awesome, yeah?

Says the guy who didn't like Gravity?  roll

Extended Edition - 146 - The Rise Of Skywalker
VFX Reel | Twitter | IMDB | Blog

829

Re: Doctor Who is awesome, yeah?

I don't get the comment, Faldor. But, I'm tired from yard work. Feel free to explain it.

I think the episode is baseline Dr who. The plot is simple; The scenes are in a linear arrangement; The cast is great and i laughed a few times. I don't feel I can complain about Who nonscience, unless they make an attempt to explain it. So, they told the story they meant to tell and I got it. There were a few groans and I still don't understand the Doctor's 'soldier' issue (I'm assuming it has a War Doctor angle and some self-loathing). And, saying the black guy must be a PE teacher seemed more racist than anti-soldier to me (I knew some brilliant people when I served). But with my general dislike for the previous episodes of this season, it's hard to complain. I am glad to see a simple, straight-forward episode of Dr Who.

It doesn't mean it's without flaws or missteps (Spoiler) Show
Examples: I think it's very weird to see Clara's first instinct with Mr Pink is to lie. In the real world, I think that means the relationship is doomed to fail. And, Pink's ability to leap small robots in a single bound was amazingly stupid.

I post because I care.
  -  -  -  -  -  -  -  -  -  -  -  -  -  -
"Feel free to flame me. I don't like Legends of Korra or Gravity, either."

Re: Doctor Who is awesome, yeah?

It seems to me that whatever happens on screen can't get me excited this season. The only thing I retain from The Caretaker was Clara's character being all over the place and silly, unrealistic interactions. The pacing was better, but the plot wasn't even that interesting.

Am I growing tired of Doctor Who? Or is there indeed something really wrong with series 8? Even the Doctor doesn't feel right. Capaldi's capability is there, I can feel it, but the script is forbidding it to show. This is frustrating.

Sébastien Fraud
Instagram |Facebook

Thumbs up +2 Thumbs down

Re: Doctor Who is awesome, yeah?

I'm in the same boat as you, Sannis. None of the episodes that have aired so far have done anything for me. The only thing to have sparked my interest thus far is the whole "Heaven" concept, but that should be the icing on the cake (and a little less heavy handed imo) and not the only basis to keep watching. Character development is completely nonsensical, and seeing as how that seems to have been the plot basis of most of the episodes so far, I can't even. I like Capaldi, but the odd humourous line can't discount the fact that his Doctor completely unlikable.

And for fucks sake, can we go to a different planet? I can go to Earth anytime I want (hell, I'm there now). I'd rather have relatable characters on an unrelatable planet than vice versa.

Thumbs up +1 Thumbs down

832

Re: Doctor Who is awesome, yeah?

Agreed.

The Whinecast guys talk about the feeling that The Doctor is being written in a very wide way, maybe so he is easier to write for. I think to the first Smith episode and I knew exactly what Smith's Doctor would be. My first Tennant episode was the introduction of Martha, and that, too, gave a very clear idea of what the Doctor would be like. But, the writing for Capaldi has been meandering: He's gray and grumpy, except when he's not.

http://thedoctorwhorewatchpodcast.blogs … taker.html

Last edited by Jp12x (2014-09-30 04:13:25)

I post because I care.
  -  -  -  -  -  -  -  -  -  -  -  -  -  -
"Feel free to flame me. I don't like Legends of Korra or Gravity, either."

Re: Doctor Who is awesome, yeah?

I think this season is already better than the bulk of season 7.
I didn't care too much for "Deep Breath", but the latter episodes have been mostly right up my alley. They're not favorites at all, but great episodes all around. I'm still not sold on Capaldi's Doctor, but I wasn't on Smith until the very end either. Moffat seems to be the recurring project.

Thumbs up Thumbs down

834

Re: Doctor Who is awesome, yeah?

That's interesting, Tom. I had the opposite with Smith: I understood and enjoyed him about halfway through his first episode. But, I lost interest as the season progressed. I don't recall what, but there was something I really didn't enjoy about the Pandorica. Then, the impossible astronaut had a terrible resolution and I disliked River Song more over time (she reminds me of Miss Piggy now). I've enjoyed all of Tennant's run since "Smith and Jones" (my first 2005 episode). But, his earlier episodes are ruined for me by Rose.

I think I'm just hyper-critical of story shortcomings. If the basic story doesn't make sense to me (plot holes and contrivances), then I can't engage with the emotional story (if I'm thinking "that is BS" I can't also be thinking "aww, this is so precious"). I know Davies and Moffat let logic fall by the waysidein favor of an emotional story or a 'stylish' or 'cool' moment; But, I loved 'Silence in the Library'; So, I guess some stories are better than others.

PS: My wife is loving the Lego Movie Extended episode.

I post because I care.
  -  -  -  -  -  -  -  -  -  -  -  -  -  -
"Feel free to flame me. I don't like Legends of Korra or Gravity, either."

Re: Doctor Who is awesome, yeah?

Ah. Um.

Well... Um, no.

So... Nah.

Yeah, I'll just let everyone else speak.

I'm done.

Sébastien Fraud
Instagram |Facebook

Thumbs up Thumbs down

Re: Doctor Who is awesome, yeah?

This was definitely a dismal episode.

A random collection of angry thoughts in no particular order Show
I know Doctor Who never claimed to be hard science fiction, but usually the bad science isn't distracting enough to pull me out of the story. But this one... woof. The moon has been tooling along at a constant mass for four and a half billion years... suddenly in a couple years its mass doubles? What the hell kind of growth cycle is that for a creature? And the spiders being giant bacteria.... Elephants don't have bigger bacteria than humans do. Whales don't have bigger bacteria. There's just... bacteria. How the fuck does this make any sense? And if they're not spiders but bacteria WHY THE HELL ARE THERE COBWEBS EVERYWHERE!?!?

I don't get why Courtney randomly floated in the space station. I was so baffled by that as it happened. Then the Doctor says something about the moon being unstable or whatever? So what, the creature suddenly shrank or something? Is THAT what's supposed to have happened?

The second this creature is born it hatches another moon? Seriously? Where is it getting all these nutrients from?

All the characters were out of character. The Doctor wasn't himself half the time. I love Peter Capaldi so dearly, and he has it in him to be an absolutely classic Doctor, but his prick schtick is starting to wear thin. And Clara... why does she want to leave? Courtney is safe in the TARDIS, it is SO unlike the Clara we know to want to abandon an adventure halfway through. And speaking of Courtney... why the fuck is she there? She has no significant impact on the story whatsoever. She's just a catalyst for Doctor/Clara arguments, which I'm ALSO sick of.

2049, eh? So how weird is it going to be for aged Clara and Danny, their kids, and their grandkids to see de-aged grandmom broadcast on every TV on the entire world? And that dimwitted voting system... so like 3/4s of the planet doesn't get to vote, because they're either in daylight or they're on the far side of the Earth? Guess it doesn't matter since Clara ignores them all anyway.

And then gets pissed off at the Doctor because she had to make that decision? Why the fuck is that? The "dramatic" argument was so out of character for both of them I was grinding my teeth. And then Danny comforting her.... SHUT UP ABOUT YOUR FUCKING BAD DAY. It was intriguing in Into the Dalek, but they've drawn out that "mystery" way too long. Just tell her you shot a kid or whatever the hell happened so we can all move on already, we've halfway through this season.

That's probably not even close to everything wrong with the episode. I'm sure I forgot to mention how it looked cheap as hell. I still think series 5 is the absolute peak of nuWho so far, and I loved Moffat's episodes during RTD's run, but I'm so ready for him to be gone. Under the right leadership Capaldi could flourish and outlast Tom Baker, but series 8 is so far from the proper way to do that.

Last edited by C-Spin (2014-10-06 05:25:47)

Thumbs up +1 Thumbs down

837

Re: Doctor Who is awesome, yeah?

It looks like 'Kill the Moon' wasn't the gripping thrillride it was supposed to be.

I am officially not watching anymore. I'll check the thread and I would love to hear that things get better. I just don't have the heart to keep watching.

Hope I'll see you guys in other threads!

I post because I care.
  -  -  -  -  -  -  -  -  -  -  -  -  -  -
"Feel free to flame me. I don't like Legends of Korra or Gravity, either."

838

Re: Doctor Who is awesome, yeah?

C-Spin wrote:

Under the right leadership Capaldi could flourish and outlast Tom Baker, but series 8 is so far from the proper way to do that.

The days of a long running Doctor are probably over. Actors get too demanding the longer they stick around (as we saw from Baker). When Colin Baker was fired it was with the excuse that no Doctor should last more than 3 years (and they counted the year the show was off the air), and we seem to be sticking to that trend. Just be glad the trend is also to limit the reign of show runners.

I write stories! With words!
http://www.asstr.org/~Invid_Fan/

Thumbs up Thumbs down

839

Re: Doctor Who is awesome, yeah?

Hmm...
So I see that the consensus is not that Kill The Moon was the best episode of Doctor Who ever.  Interesting.  I think it is my new favorite.

Re: Doctor Who is awesome, yeah?

http://i977.photobucket.com/albums/ae251/swebb1/tumblr_inline_mkq8fpvnif1qz4rgp.gif

I thought this episode was complete and utter shit. Basically paraphrasing what C-Spin said, but: Blatant disregard for law of conservation of mass, which they didn't even technobabble explain away. Doctor is still a dick, Clara is a bitch, Courtney is annoying, and the ending felt like it was from a completely different episode. I'm sad this is what passes for Doctor Who these days.

I'll probably still watch, but I'm getting really sick of Moffat's bullshit.

Thumbs up +1 Thumbs down

841

Re: Doctor Who is awesome, yeah?

Okay, well I am of the school that says Doctor Who is not science fiction, but fantasy that uses the trappings of scifi. So for me the absurd science is not a negative because Who always has dumb science.  It is a show with evil mannequins and subterranian dinosaur people and Martian Ice Warriors.    If you don't agree with that view, obviously this episode won't work for you. 

But if you are onboard with Who as a fairy tale, then “the moon is an egg” is a perfect idea for a story.  It is beautiful and weird and suggestive and magical.

This episode starts out appearing to be yet another Astronauts in Trouble attack of the moon spiders bog standard Who episode and then it lurches into something darker and subtler, almost a stage play where three humans have to make a huge difficult choice.

And it is smart and it is well-acted and it is nuanced and the fact that the Doctor takes off makes it disorienting and gives the decision gravity(which sure, is not an otherwise original dilemma). 

And then the double-twist of Clara letting the world vote but then overruling the world when the world is selfish and mean?  That elevates the problem of “do you be nice or not” into something far more complicated and dramatic. 

And it has all wrapped up right?  But no.  The Doctor behaved terribly this episode and Clara lets him have it.  There is a fundamental power imbalance in the Doctor/Companion relationship and the Doctor has always exploited it and this season he has been showing all of his least sympathetic traits.  And Clara does not do what Rose always did which was smile and take it.  She gets to be righteously angry and it is perfect.   

So for 40 minutes we have a perfect fairy tale for grown ups that is a showcase for spectacle, a mature exploration of a moral issue, and a character drama that ultimately affirms mankind's best nature. And then for the last five minutes we have a brilliant character drama that is firing on gears we've never seen on the show before but springs from issues that have been present for the entirety of the show. 

I was stunned by the skill at display in the crafting of this episode.  Most of the complaints levied here are things that I liked.  The only thing I take issue with is calling Clara out of character and a “bitch”.  Clara has always had a take-no-shit attitude and always treated the Doctor as an equal.   Good on her for getting angry. 

So  that's where I'm coming from.

Re: Doctor Who is awesome, yeah?

I'm with you on Doctor Who at least insofar as it has NEVER striven to be "hard" sci-fi. But there's a difference between being space fantasy and being scientifically retarded. They get a pass on lizards buried beneath the Earth, because in theory it COULD happen, even if I know it hasn't. The evil mannequins are robots. The TARDIS couldn't happen but has a plausible enough pseudoscience explanation and is a device invented by a hyper advanced alien race.

That's all fine. And honestly I'm fine with the idea of the moon as an egg. That's clever and it's VERY Doctor Who. But you can do that concept without breaking my brain. I'm not even a science nerd, not by any stretch, but when you consistently get every aspect of the science wrong, in an episode set in our OWN BACK YARD, it really pulls me out of it. You could have this story without giant spider-bacteria that spin webs. You could have it without the moon's mass changing. The havoc wreaked on Earth was only used as the impetus for the moon mission, which could easily have been done any number of other ways.

It's one thing to play fast and loose with the rules, it's another to consistently violate them at every turn, seemingly through lack of understanding. Almost everything to do with the setting and the technology in this episode was scientifically invalid, and in a show that's meant to foster a love of learning and exploration in children that's inexcusable.

As to your other points... I honestly fail to see what's wrong with what the Doctor did. He's right, it's our planet, it's our moon, it should be our decision to make. Clara volunteers to travel with him, she knows the kinds of situations she'll be faced with. This is the girl who plunged headfirst into the Doctor's time stream to save his life, after being told it would kill her. It's totally fair for the Doctor to leave this up to hear and the astronaut lady.

You could argue that he didn't need to abandon the scene to do that, but I think he did. If he had stuck around Clara would have known he was there to pick up the pieces at the last minute and she wouldn't have acted. Her blow-up came completely out of left field for me because I legitimately couldn't understand what the Doctor had done to slight her.

Last edited by C-Spin (2014-10-08 13:31:43)

Thumbs up +2 Thumbs down

843

Re: Doctor Who is awesome, yeah?

Regarding bad science:  sure.  It worked for me, I totally get why it didn't work for you. 

Regarding Clara getting angry:  It isn't about the Doctor forcing her to make the choice, it is about him being a condescending asshole about it.  It's about the fact that since he regenerated he's been increasingly difficult and patronizing.  His prick schtick as you say.  They are on the moon, surrounded by monsters, with a horrible choice in front of them, and he just takes off with no indication as to when or if he will return, and no indication whether he knows more than he is saying about this hard choice.  That is not the behavior of a best friend, which is how Clara has (to my eye) treated their relationship to this point. 

Or so it seems to me.  It rang very true to me.  I appear to be in the minority.  That's fine, but I'll be damned if this episode didn't resonate for me.  I was thunderstruck.

Re: Doctor Who is awesome, yeah?

I think the parasitical spiders were a bit much. Sure, they could be parasites, and shaped like space spiders, but they obviously have no use for webs(as in catching smaller goes), as all they are supposed to do, is feed off the giant space dragon thingy.

I like the egg idea. No, I love it. It's just poorly executed. The mass of the moon could arguably shift if it was heavier, sure, but they also pick on the idea that the moon's been there for a hundred million years, but only in the recent 20 or so years has the creature matured enough. You could arguably say that the shift in mass was because the dragon was forming a new egg to replace the old, but the creature that flew out of the moon was nowhere near big enough to contain a moon sized egg, and it's also revealed that it dropped the egg off after it flew away. So it makes no sense.

As for Clara; yes please. Take her away. Now. I've never enjoyed her stay, but right now, it's time to leave. The doctor is fine. He's a bit moody and rude, but it's not as much Capaldi I have an issue with as it is Moffat.

Thumbs up Thumbs down

Re: Doctor Who is awesome, yeah?

Tomahawk wrote:

I like the egg idea. No, I love it. It's just poorly executed. The mass of the moon could arguably shift if it was heavier, sure, but they also pick on the idea that the moon's been there for a hundred million years, but only in the recent 20 or so years has the creature matured enough. You could arguably say that the shift in mass was because the dragon was forming a new egg to replace the old, but the creature that flew out of the moon was nowhere near big enough to contain a moon sized egg, and it's also revealed that it dropped the egg off after it flew away. So it makes no sense.

The problem with the moon's mass increasing at all is that that's not how eggs work. It's not like a human baby where they're being fed by a source external to them and grow larger and gain weight. Once the egg is out that's all you get, it's a little contained system where the yolk and the albumen turn into a baby whatever. The weight of this creature CAN'T be any more than the weight of the moon minus whatever the "shell" weighs.

And yeah, then laying a brand new egg is just beyond dumb.

Regarding Clara getting angry:  It isn't about the Doctor forcing her to make the choice, it is about him being a condescending asshole about it.  It's about the fact that since he regenerated he's been increasingly difficult and patronizing.  His prick schtick as you say.  They are on the moon, surrounded by monsters, with a horrible choice in front of them, and he just takes off with no indication as to when or if he will return, and no indication whether he knows more than he is saying about this hard choice.  That is not the behavior of a best friend, which is how Clara has (to my eye) treated their relationship to this point.

I think Clara knows the Doctor well enough, even at this point, to know he's coming back. He didn't abandon her in Deep Breath when she trusted that he wouldn't, I don't know what's changed now. She even said in The Caretaker that she trusts him with her life. He absolutely handled this in a dickish way, but I didn't think it was anywhere near his worst behavior since the regeneration.

Also, speaking of pricks, I'm not trying to be one here, Isaac. I'm just baffled by some of the positive reviews I've seen for this episode, some sites called it a masterpiece or the best of series 8 so far, I think it's one of the worst episodes of Doctor Who ever. I enjoyed the friggin' Twin Dilemma more.

Thumbs up +1 Thumbs down

Re: Doctor Who is awesome, yeah?

In retrospect, I agree calling Clara a bitch is a bit much based solely on this episode, although I'm still not convinced her reaction was entirely justified. I'm also in the "Doctor Who is Fantasy with Sci-fi elements" camp, but they normally acknowledge their shitty science with technobabble or some other device, which they didn't really do here. That was my main problem with the "moon is an egg" idea.

And I also wasn't trying to come off as a dick, either, so sorry if that's the impression you got.

Thumbs up Thumbs down

847

Re: Doctor Who is awesome, yeah?

First of all, no one has come off as a dick to me in this thread.  Smiley faces all around. 


C-Spin wrote:

I'm just baffled by some of the positive reviews I've seen for this episode, some sites called it a masterpiece or the best of series 8 so far, I think it's one of the worst episodes of Doctor Who ever.

I have to agree with those reviews, it is a masterpiece.  Can we agree that it is possible for something to be great even if it doesn't work for ourselves at all? 

Here's the thing, the way I see it,  a lot of truly great stories are making very strong choices and the things that make that thing great are going to rub some people the wrong way.  That doesn't mean that the great stories are only for smart people or people with taste, or even that the people who like the great works are “right” and the people who don't are “wrong.”  Anna Karenina is a masterpiece that I will never finish because it is not for me. 

A conservative is going to be less receptive to a great story from a liberal point of view and a liberal is going to be less receptive to a story from a conservative point of view, right?  The assumptions and way you look at the world and the things that you like are going to color how you perceive things. 

This episode has terrible science.  It is no more a work of science fiction than The Little Prince.  If you can't embrace that, if that crosses the line for you, then it isn't going to work for you.  However, for those of us that can deal with throwing that particular dimension of suspension of disbelief out the window, it is a great story for the reasons I tried to articulate earlier.  If you can accept the story on its own terms, and make no mistake it is a departure from the default Doctor Who terms, it is AMAZING. 

The real question, I suppose, is whether being an episode of Doctor Who confers expectations of being a certain sort of thing.  I would argue that this is a show specifically geared to tell many different types of stories and that this episode, while being on the far end of a particular type of story is “fair play”.  But then again I freaking loved it, so I would say that.  smile

Re: Doctor Who is awesome, yeah?

Oooo, been a while since I heard a good, "It doesn't matter how actually horrible it is, if you didn't like it, it's your fault" argument.

http://media.giphy.com/media/Rjr7PlxQj8aQg/giphy.gif

Last edited by BigDamnArtist (2014-10-08 22:14:34)

ZangrethorDigital.ca

849

Re: Doctor Who is awesome, yeah?

BigDamnArtist wrote:

Oooo, been a while since I heard a good, "It doesn't matter how actually horrible it is, if you didn't like it, it's your fault" argument.

I believe that is the opposite of what was put forth in this forum, no?  I believe what you read was a "not all things are for all people" argument.  What you heard, of course is a different matter.

Re: Doctor Who is awesome, yeah?

Tell me something. Given what you wrote in that post. Is it ever possible for something to be considered bad? Ever?

Last edited by BigDamnArtist (2014-10-08 22:30:15)

ZangrethorDigital.ca