Re: Star Trek

There is no set of circumstances short of the totally collapse of the entire structure of Starfleet that would have let that make sense.

Did you watch the movie? The whole freaking Earth defense fleet got blowed up. That was like, thirty thousand commissioned officers.

You don't think it makes sense to start promoting the smartest people? It's not like Pike didn't know what Kirk was capable of.

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Re: Star Trek

And there are still, presumably, DOZENS of people on the Enterprise alone more qualified to command a starship than the guy that was 30 seconds from getting kicked out of the Academy.

Re: Star Trek

BrianFinifter wrote:

And there are still, presumably, DOZENS of people on the Enterprise alone more qualified to command a starship than the guy that was 30 seconds from getting kicked out of the Academy.

Did you watch the movie? The Enterprise was staffed with cadets! Didn't you notice that the entire bridge staff was made of people who hadn't graduated yet?

And Kirk wasn't 30 seconds from getting kicked out. He was 30 seconds away from being exonerated, just like in the prime timeline.

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Re: Star Trek

It's possible that the whole Earth defense fleet got blowed up off-screen. But unless I'm totally misremembering, all that actually happened on-screen was that six or seven ships got blowed up. That's like four or five thousand people total, maybe a quarter of those commissioned officers.

Okay, so maybe Starfleet's small. Maybe that was the vast bulk of the O6-and-below officer corps. But if that's the case why promote Pike? The guy was clearly fit for duty, although he was still recovering. Even if most of the deployed officers were killed, it's not like there was a sudden, unexplained shortage of flag officers.

Okay, so maybe Pike's injuries were sufficient to take him off the line. The promotion to rear admiral was a courtesy. And maybe Starfleet really did need to promote cadets quickly in order to shore up the ranks. But Enterprise? They gave the brand new flagship of the fleet not to one of the surviving commanding officers — remember, the fleet was massing in the Laurentian system during the events of the film — but to a cadet who broke many, many laws?

That can't be hand-waved away. The only thing that could make it make sense is to postulate that Starfleet works on entirely different rules from any existing human military or pseudo-military organization. Hell, the Salvation Army has a more well-defined order of battle than Starfleet.

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Re: Star Trek

Stop with the sanctimony, Greg. It's getting really old.

Yes, we all watched the movie. Yes, we all saw the same thing. Your point of view of certain events does not automatically equate with gospel simply because it is yours.

Re: Star Trek

I don't really think you're in any position to complain about the way in which people disagree with you. I listened to two hours of people trying to enjoy a movie while you complained about the tiniest of nerd issues.

Kirk being promoted to captain makes perfect sense in the context of the movie. A bunch of officers died, Kirk proved that he was talented and a leader, so a decision was made.

Now, I'd understand your complaint if Kirk was, say, a Starfleet ROTC dropout or something.

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Re: Star Trek

Yes, because people trying to enjoy a movie in peace makes an EXCELLENT audio commentary.

The Villain's motivation making no sense is NOT the tiniest of nerd issues. I specifically didn't repeatedly harp on the nerdier stuff to not bog down the commentary with that. Besides, there's so much else wrong with the movie (like Kirk's rank ascendancy) that I didn't have time to.

If there was something that I didn't like as a Star Trek fan, I mentioned it, and unless someone asked me about it further, I didn't repeatedly beat that exact same point into the ground.

Last edited by Brian (2010-04-21 00:18:31)

Re: Star Trek

Nero's shortcomings as a villain are well documented and agreed upon. I would have liked to see ideas for what a better villain would have been, but OK, that's fine.

What I take issue with is things like the discussion of the ship itself. Three people on the podcast thought the ship looked awesome, and one person didn't, so the commentary for ten minutes became about why that person didn't like it, which turned out to be 'because it doesn't look like a 20th century aircraft carrier.'

Don't get me wrong, I liked the commentary, and I liked that a critical face was turned towards it, but way too much of the commentary went towards you or people having to disagree with you.

Last edited by Gregory Harbin (2010-04-21 00:29:25)

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Re: Star Trek

Because Ryan and Mike kept the discussion on that topic!

I refuse to be pegged as some horrible cliche of a 1980's Star Trek fan because OTHER PEOPLE in the commentary kept the conversation on a particular topic. Agree or disagree with my point of view, but do not insinuate that I kept pounding the floor shouting "The Bussard collectors are the wrong color!" while everyone else was telling me to stop.

As for seeing ideas for a better villain, perhaps you've missed my several posts about how Nero could be a better villain.

Gregory Harbin wrote:

Don't get me wrong, I liked the commentary, and I liked that a critical face was turned towards it, but way too much of the commentary went towards you or people having to disagree with you.

Yeah, it's Star Trek and I'm one of the main guys on the podcast. Deal with it.

Re: Star Trek

Mod face:

Whoa, folks. Let's bring it down a notch here.

Teague Chrystie

I have a tendency to fix your typos.

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Re: Star Trek

Deal with it? Come on, man, 'deal with it' is nowhere near a fair response, especially considering that the same thing could be said to you (just as unfairly) about anything concerning the new Star Trek movie.

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Re: Star Trek

Based on the events in the movie, apparently all you have to do is stand in one spot for more than thirty seconds and someone will give you command of the Enterprise.   Most likely as they're headed out the door at a full run.   Aieee, YOU do it! 

As I said earlier, that struck me as amusingly odd from my very first viewing of the movie - it's like being captain is cancerous or something.  Hell, we even see TWO people voluntarily submit themselves to certain death at Nero's hands rather than stay in that chair.

Starfleet in general seems awfully lax about a lot of rules - I agree that the whole Bones-sneaking-Kirk-aboard injection scene, while kinda funny and slapstick, is also clearly court martial bait.

But even with all that, I have to say that I didn't find it outlandish that Kirk got the captain job.   Of course that's not how it works under normal military protocol, but there is such a thing as a battlefield promotion, even in our era.   

There are even such things as battlefield commissions, in which enlisted men become instant officers as a result of heroism or circumstance, without ever spending a day in OCS.     And the movie shows us plenty of hints that Starfleet is in *ahem* a bit of disarray that day.     

There's the additional wrinkle that Kirk finds out from Old Spock that he MUST become the captain, and has to do it sooner than he might have otherwise.  So he's got motivation to grab the chair however he can get it. 

It's also implied that when the crisis has passed, Kirk still keeps the job at least partly due to the behind-the-scenes machinations of Old Spock.

Again, while the details can be quibbled about, the general spirit is very original Trek - those guys were always breaking the rules left and right, it's just that they kept saving the galaxy by doing it and so Starfleet tended to look the other way.  Crazy kids.

Re: Star Trek

Wait, wait.  We're complaining that Kirk became captain of the Enterprise at the end of the movie?

Why the fuck was Luke handed a space F16 at the end of Star Wars, with zero experience in a dogfight?  It's not like he'd done ANYTHING of worth in that movie aside from clutch his sister real hard while swinging across a 20 foot chasm and manning a turret, if I recall.  Wheras JTK fucking beat a time travelling badass Romulan with a ship that singlehandedly destroyed like 8 Constitution class starships- through sheer will and strategy.  Kirk proved himself as a tactical commander, as a leader, and as a man committed to Starfleet.

It's a fucking movie.  Starfleet is not real- I hate to break your heart, Brandon from Galaxy Quest- but it is NOT key that they follow strict military procedure.  Let's be honest, 60's Kirk would be fired from any real life military organization so fast your head would spin.

He's a badass cowboy with a good heart and a good head that WILL NOT GIVE UP even when it doesn't look like he's got a chance in hell.  Go get some more guys and then it'll be a fair fight.

How could you possibly have a problem with that?

When.

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Re: Star Trek

Of course Star Trek is just a movie. But there's this whole spectrum of plausibility. If Kirk had sprouted wings and flown across the galaxy, I think we'd all be on the "not buyin' it" side of the argument.

I'm freely admitting that I'm the weirdo here. I have no problem accepting spaceships and suspiciously humanoid aliens and time travel and black holes that don't work at all like black holes, but show me a large, hierarchical organization that doesn't work like a normal large, hierarchical organization and I call bull. That's me, that's my quirk.

You know what I like though? Pie. Apple, pumpkin … mmm. Pecan. Yeah. I sure could go for a nice slice of pecan pie right now.

Who's with me?

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Re: Star Trek

What kind of a tremendous prick really think that pecan pie is the best version of pie?!

Fuck you, man!

Teague Chrystie

I have a tendency to fix your typos.

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Re: Star Trek

Fuck me? Fuck you! All I said was that I like pie! You're the one who kept harping on the subject! I would have dropped it if you'd just let me have my opinion!

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So, I assume you don't like Star Wars either, because I don't think the Empire functions very logically either.  "They killed the president and blew up the white house!  Twice!  I guess we just give up now."

When.

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Re: Star Trek

"It's just a movie" should be the Godwin's Law of movie discussions.

Of course it's just a movie. It's still worth talking about. "It's just a movie" is another way of saying, "It's not worth talking about." If that's your opinion, fine, but perhaps you should refrain from participating in a movie commentary forum.

And, as we've already discussed, Star Wars is a space fantasy. The nature of the magic beans is far different. That being said, you're right! The fact that Luke gets an X-Wing and is a flight leader instead of Wedge or Biggs DOESN'T make sense. And it's a weakness in the story of Star Wars. And to be stronger, there SHOULD'VE been some justification of why Luke turns out to be the very last, desperate hope of the Rebels.

Re: Star Trek

I think we implied that Star Wars and Star Trek both participate in fantasy worlds that don't deal in magic beans so much as multibean universes.

Teague Chrystie

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Hey hey hey. Try and keep up. We're done fighting over TV shows and movies. Now we're fighting about pie.

All kidding aside, the large-scale parts of "Star Wars" were always the bits that worked least well for me. Even as a kid, I never quite bought into the whole "the Emperor's dead, the civil war is over" thing. I liked that story best in IV and V, where it was a few scrappy heroes and a menacing villain against the big backdrop of a galactic civil war. The bit that always piqued my imagination the most was that line in A New Hope where Tarkin says, "The Emperor has dissolved the council permanently." And then they spend twenty seconds talking about the bureaucracy, and the Tarkin doctrine. It's not gripping stuff, but it's fantastic world-building, because absolutely none of it is as-you-know. It's all setting, and it got real verisimilitude.

I guess I personally respond best to stories about little heroes in big settings. Cause that's how I like to imagine myself.

Now, back to the pie question, goddammit, 'cause that's what's really important. I submit to you, honored friends, that whipped cream is inherently superior to ice cream as a pie topping, and that it always will be!

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Re: Star Trek

Kyle wrote:

Wait, wait.  We're complaining that Kirk became captain of the Enterprise at the end of the movie?

Why the fuck was Luke handed a space F16 at the end of Star Wars, with zero experience in a dogfight?

Because the Rebels were desperate, in small numbers, and needed anyone who could hold a control-stick without drooling on themselves (and they'd probably even allow that, depending on what kind of creature you were). There wasn't any particular chain of command or succession there. It was "EVERYONE HAS BOMBS. SOMEONE GET A BOMB IN THE HOLE."

Whereas Starfleet is a pseudomilitary organization with ranks, seniority, and chains of command. These are two different situations, here.

Kyle wrote:

Wheras JTK fucking beat a time travelling badass Romulan with a ship that singlehandedly destroyed like 8 Constitution class starships- through sheer will and strategy.  Kirk proved himself as a tactical commander, as a leader, and as a man committed to Starfleet.

All of which happened after he had been put in command of the Enterprise, which should not have happened in the first place.

It's fortunate for everyone in Startrekland that it did, of course, but the issue here is that the chain of events that put him in the position to be a badass commander are very difficult to swallow and could probably have been better executed and finessed.

Kyle wrote:

It's a fucking movie.

And it's the fucking point of the fucking podcast to fucking discuss fucking movies, and the fucking point of the fucking forum to continue the fucking discussion. If you don't fucking like it, no one's holding a gun to your fucking head.

Fucking.

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Re: Star Trek

JayHair wrote:

I submit to you, honored friends, that whipped cream is inherently superior to ice cream as a pie topping, and that it always will be!

I do not feel strongly about that issue!

Teague Chrystie

I have a tendency to fix your typos.

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Re: Star Trek

"All I know is my gut says 'maybe.'"

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Re: Star Trek

Right, but my point in the commentary was that the the level of justification for your magic bean determines what genre your story exists in. If I levitate in midair, it's a fantasy. If I levitate after waving a wand, it's a wizard-style fantasy. If I levitate because I have an antigravity generator, it's science fiction. If I levitate because I'm actually at the center of a rotating space habitat, it's hard science fiction.

The neatness of Star Wars is that it mixed elements of fantasy and science fiction, but because it contains fantasy elements at all, it automatically lends itself to that common denominator of magic beans.

Re: Star Trek

Tell my wife I said, "Hello."