Topic: The Avengers

Edit: This thread spends a couple of pages devolving into a conversation about sexism. If you're so inclined, the tangent in the commentary that instigated this begins at 2:05:30 in the NTSC MP3.


Teague Chrystie

I have a tendency to fix your typos.

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Re: The Avengers

So... Will there be an Intermission about sexualization of women in sci-fi? The issue still seems relevant (and it's been 13 years since Sigourney spoofed it in Galaxy Quest) wink

So honor the valiant who die 'neath your sword
But pity the warrior who slays all his foes...

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Re: The Avengers

Scarlett Johannson talks like a supersecret spy, but moves like a girl. Cobie Smoulders (Maria Hill) moves like a supersecret agent, but talks like aunt Robin from HIMYM. It's annoying. There's also a shot during the final battle where Thor is spinning his hammer, getting ready to 'fly' and zap the aliens with thunder. The camera pans left and Scarlett is just standing there looking past the camera trying really hard to look badass for no reason. She's trying so hard to keep the same expression that you can see her face muscles twitching.

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Re: The Avengers

Lamer wrote:

Scarlett Johannson talks like a supersecret spy, but moves like a girl.

http://gifsoup.com/webroot/animatedgifs4/3105402_o.gif\

But seriously though. Why do the two have to be mutually exclusive?

"The Doctor is Submarining through our brains." --Teague

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Re: The Avengers

About hamsters and such in pneumatic tubes, see if one of your comic reading friends has a copy of the Jeff Nicholson book "Through the Habitrails", a look at a work for hire graphic artist:

We were constantly reminded of our station in life by the gerbils, which existed throughout the building in a vast complex of clear tubes and grey, unkept tin gages. The gerbils were a living symbiosis between our employers and ourselves. While they reminded us of the futility of life outside the company, they were also released regularly for the benefit of the staff. After years of such specialized domestication they had become empaths of stress and sespair. The gerbils would attempt to flee, and display uncontrolled cringing and schizophrenia. The destruction of gerbils was not frowned upon, as their life span within the office would not exceed three weeks due to the bombardment of misery. The gerbil industry was massive, and the supply could always be increased.

I write stories! With words!
http://www.asstr.org/~Invid_Fan/

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Re: The Avengers

Doctor Submarine wrote:

But seriously though. Why do the two have to be mutually exclusive?

Because she's supposed to be a super ninja warrior agent spy kind of gal who's been in training since she was a child. People with that kind of background handle themselves differently than regular folk. I want to see that in her performance. That doesn't mean she can't be feminine but when facing danger I want to see that this girl is indeed an elite spy and not a librarian.

This is not how you run when a killing machine is chasing you.

Here's an example from IM2 (mute the awful C64 beat):

Watch the scene where she gets out of the car and stops. Does she look like she's about to beat the shit out of some thugs or yell at Happy for forgetting to take the dog to the vet?

Last edited by Lamer (2012-11-19 22:52:19)

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Re: The Avengers

Does all this really matter? It's not going to stop the fact that she is in the films......

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Re: The Avengers

No clue what you're talking about on the running thing. She's running quickly and covering herself from falling debris. How else is someone supposed to run away from a monster?

"The Doctor is Submarining through our brains." --Teague

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Re: The Avengers

Doctor Submarine wrote:

No clue what you're talking about on the running thing. She's running quickly and covering herself from falling debris. How else is someone supposed to run away from a monster?

Plus, she has a hurt leg, doesn't she?

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Re: The Avengers

Jimmy B wrote:
Doctor Submarine wrote:

No clue what you're talking about on the running thing. She's running quickly and covering herself from falling debris. How else is someone supposed to run away from a monster?

Plus, she has a hurt leg, doesn't she?

Yeah, she was pinned down by rubble a second before. I'm willing to concede that her performance in Iron Man 2 isn't very good, but I actually thought she pulled it off in Avengers. The scene where she fakes out Loki is one of my favorite moments in the film.

"The Doctor is Submarining through our brains." --Teague

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Re: The Avengers

Yeah, I think she's great in The Avengers but Iron Man 2, not so much.

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Re: The Avengers

Her first scene in The Avengers immediately cemented her as a bad ass in my book.

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Re: The Avengers

Jimmy B wrote:

Does all this really matter?

No, it's only something I've noticed that bothers me.

Doctor Submarine wrote:

. The scene where she fakes out Loki is one of my favorite moments in the film.

I agree. It's a great scene. That's why I said she talks like a spy but doesn't move like one.

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Re: The Avengers

But your reasoning for that doesn't hold up giving the example you used. She has a hurt leg when she is running from the Hulk, she is 'limp-running' because she is in pain.

Not disagreeing with you about her in Iron Man 2, though.

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Re: The Avengers

Jimmy B wrote:

But your reasoning for that doesn't hold up giving the example you used. She has a hurt leg when she is running from the Hulk, she is 'limp-running' because she is in pain. .

No. Watch it again. She stumbles because she's putting her gun in the holster. She's not limping before or after that.

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Re: The Avengers

I did watch it, I just listened to the DiF comm. She limps up the stairs (she has to use both hands for support) and watch her drag her leg just before Hulk grabs the grate from underneath her.

Anyway, even if I'm wrong and she's not in pain and not limping, I don't see anything wrong with the way she moves in this film. Who says spies have to move in a certain way?

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Re: The Avengers

Anne Hathaway's Catwoman takes out hardened mercenaries wearing stilettos, which makes Scarlett's character look almost plausible.

not long to go now...

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Re: The Avengers

Jimmy B wrote:

Anyway, even if I'm wrong and she's not in pain and not limping, I don't see anything wrong with the way she moves in this film. Who says spies have to move in a certain way?

Not spies specifically but people with 20+ years of training move differently than people without any training at all. Your body is conditioned to handle physical strain, it moves its own weight differently, the movement is very dynamic. If you can't see it then that's great because you'll enjoy the movie more. It's just something that stands out for me. I guess I pay extra attention to those things, force of habit... or maybe it's all in my head wink

avatar wrote:

Anne Hathaway's Catwoman takes out hardened mercenaries wearing stilettos

Don't get me started on that movie wink

Last edited by Lamer (2012-11-20 03:01:07)

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Re: The Avengers

Lamer wrote:

I guess I pay extra attention to those things, force of habit... or maybe it's all in my head wink

Maybe, because a lot of us just don't give a shit about it big_smile wink

Last edited by Jimmy B (2012-11-20 03:04:59)

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Re: The Avengers

Jimmy B wrote:
Lamer wrote:

I guess I pay extra attention to those things, force of habit... or maybe it's all in my head wink

Maybe, because a lot of us just don't give a shit about it big_smile wink

I've never said you should. I like the backflipping car in The Blues Brothers.

Last edited by Lamer (2012-11-20 03:14:53)

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Re: The Avengers

Lamer wrote:

I've never said you should.

And I've never said you said I should....... http://www.empireonline.com/forum/upfiles/smiley/augen14.gif

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Re: The Avengers

Jimmy B wrote:
Lamer wrote:

I've never said you should.

And I've never said you said I should....... http://www.empireonline.com/forum/upfiles/smiley/augen14.gif

Seems like we're on the same page then wink

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Re: The Avengers

Wait........mind blown! big_smile

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Re: The Avengers

Great episode guys. I had the privilege of getting to listen to a good chunk of this one live (first time listening to the live feed ever woo!) before I was unfortunately called away. Finally got to listen to the rest today and it did not disappoint.

Doctor Submarine wrote:

I'm willing to concede that her performance in Iron Man 2 isn't very good, but I actually thought she pulled it off in Avengers. The scene where she fakes out Loki is one of my favorite moments in the film.

This is definitely one of my favorite moments too. Upon first watch I was genuinely worried she was falling for it but Joss played me like a fiddle and as a result she ends up as one of my favorite characters and this scene is a standout in a film full of awesome moments.

I have to dispute the point that she was bad in Iron Man 2 though. I will admit to being fan of Ms. Johanson (I like her in Lost in Translation, The Prestige, We Bought a Zoo and, yes, even The Island) so maybe I'm biased but I think the problem with Black Widow in Iron Man 2 is not her performance but the fact that the character is given almost nothing to do and nothing resembling a personal approach to things. In Avengers, despite having to deal with a myriad of other characters, she's still given character touches in every scene she's in (playing the mobsters for fools, trying to hide the fact that she's terrified when she first meets Hulk, etc.). In Iron Man 2 she's told to give Tony some instructions or to walk sexily across the room. I feel like in Iron Man 2 she nails it, she just not given much to nail.

As to the debate on sexualisation that broke out, I'd just like to throw into the ring that I don't think that Male Idealisation and Male Sexualisation are actually mutually exclusive. The comparison that was thrown up is that the men would have to be grabbing their crotches but sexualisation is not a binary thing. Just as Black Widow holding her breasts in her hands would be more overtly sexualised than holding her guns while standing in a "sexy" pose, the fact that the men aren't holding their crotches doesn't mean they're automatically not at all sexualised.

Here's the image that started the controversy.

http://www.worldofsuperheroes.com/wp-content/uploads/2012/03/avenfull.jpg

Try and tell me that the depiction of Thor with his hair blowing in the wind, chest pushed out and the light reflecting of his muscular arms isn't at all sexualised. If Black Widow's pose is considered sexualised because it's designed to show off the parts of her body that are commonly associated with sexualisation, namely her breasts and ass, then how is that not exactly what Thor's pose is doing. If you asked someone to describe a sexy male don't you think they would be describing exactly the sort of elements that image of Thor is emphasizing?

I'm not saying that Black Widow isn't being sexualised, I'm just saying it's more of a two way street than it seems common to acknowledge.

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Re: The Avengers

Just  finished the commentary and it is one of the best I have listened to in a while, and that is saying something considering the DiF crowd big_smile
Though, Trey did take the show a little bit with his quips about comic characters and Brian's scrambling to create his own comic books (I want an autographed copy). Overall, it was insightful, with Teague providing technical Joss tidbits and Dorkman's own experiences. It was great, great fun (and Teague, I got your Tito joke and laughed a lot).
While I work on a response regarding the sexism but I do agree with Dorkman and Trey. For now, the article below is food for thought:
http://www.cracked.com/blog/the-5-most- … -costumes/

God loves you!

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