Re: Let's talk about Joss, baby

Interesting. Chris Braak wrote about what James Gunn could say on his blog just yesterday, and it's not far off Gunn's actual statement.

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Re: Let's talk about Joss, baby

I saw what Chris wrote, but I don't doubt the sincerity from James either.  I....sorta...got to work on something that James worked on and two things emerged to be true.  A deep respect for womanhood, and a filthy, filthy sense of humor.  James posted something pretty beautiful on National Coming Out Day that I'm looking for right now.

Eddie Doty

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Re: Let's talk about Joss, baby

Dorkman wrote:

Interesting. Chris Braak wrote about what James Gunn could say on his blog just yesterday, and it's not far off Gunn's actual statement.

I remember reading that blog entry yesterday and loving it. This section is what resonates with me the most:

"I don’t know; what I do know is that I’m done with all this....

I am not interested any more, at all, in supporting the work of people that can’t figure this shit out.

Whatever, you guys.  Whatever."

I don't want to feel "whatever" but sometimes I do.  If James Gunn is sincere - and I really want to believe he is - does it cancel out what he did? And the damage he caused?

Last edited by Allison (2012-11-30 03:10:04)

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Re: Let's talk about Joss, baby

I have a female friend who is friends with James personally. If it'd be to the benefit of the thread or anyone in it, I'd be happy to ask.

Teague Chrystie

I have a tendency to fix your typos.

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Re: Let's talk about Joss, baby

Asked regardless.

This friend is an attractive young lady.


Teague: folks, male and female, on the DIF board are trying to sort out if gunn is a sexist.
his work being one thing, the old blog post being another, the retraction being a third thing.
what's your read?

Her: He's definitely absolutely not a sexist. He just has a particular sense of humor that most people don't realize is him just pushing it.

Teague: is there anything in particular that you draw on to make the conclusion he's not a sexist?

Her: I've hung out with him several times, had multiple conversations with him, heard him speak of relationships and women in his life, etc

Teague: gotcha. without attributing you, can I use you as an unnamed source in the thread?

Her: sure, go for it.

Teague Chrystie

I have a tendency to fix your typos.

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Re: Let's talk about Joss, baby

I'm not sure how anyone who's read more of JG's stuff than that one post, or seen his films, could have taken that comic thing as anything other than a piss-take.

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Re: Let's talk about Joss, baby

Dave wrote:

I'm not sure how anyone who's read more of JG's stuff than that one post, or seen his films, could have taken that comic thing as anything other than a piss-take.

I have become used to men in this industry saying disgusting things about women. It's getting tough to seperate the horrible jokes and the horrible opinions.


As my friend put it last week: satire is meant to target the powerful, not the vulnerable. And jokes are supposed to be funny.

Last edited by Allison (2012-11-30 16:23:41)

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Re: Let's talk about Joss, baby

Say what you will, though, such things make it easier to pick out the idiots and assholes. If they were afraid to say it, you'd never know.

I write stories! With words!
http://www.asstr.org/~Invid_Fan/

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Re: Let's talk about Joss, baby

Yeah, I'm glad Tony Harris's attitudes came to light so I can stop interacting with him or his work. I was responding to the idea that JG's post was clearly a joke.

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Re: Let's talk about Joss, baby

Allison wrote:

I have become used to men in this industry saying disgusting things about women.

Sorry, but people seem to just want to be offended these days, and keen to want everyone to know that they're offended. I'd also be careful to actually read what people say and not just assume the attention-grabbing headline is right.

Take this article for instance, which does a what he said vs what he meant play-by-play of the diabtribe. It's a perfect example of twisting someone's words so you can have NOISY OUTRAGE.
http://www.buzzfeed.com/donnad/comic-bo … s-women-co

The irony is that he's just criticising those women who come to conventions essentially dressed and acting like strippers in a club; and specifically focuses on their superficial friendliness. Isn't that something that other women frown upon as well? Do ordinary girls go to conventions and feel pride at seeing other members of their sex not only dress up like the scantily clad heroines they're keen to tell us are poorly developed female characters but then proceed to act like porn fantasy versions of them? I'm slightly baffled by the have cake and eating it attitude here or perhaps it's that only women can complain about other women?

Personally, I think it's utterly degrading for women and doesn't do women in the comics industry any favours to have the predominantly male comic reading audience have their fantasy version of women reinforced by an almost worse representation at fandom events. It totally undermines the move towards less sexism in American comics.

Imagination will often carry us to worlds that never were. But without it we go nowhere. - Carl Sagan

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Re: Let's talk about Joss, baby

Allison wrote:

As my friend put it last week: satire is meant to target the powerful, not the vulnerable. And jokes are supposed to be funny.

I don't disagree that taken on its own, it's horrible. There's context though, which is relevant to the discussion.

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Re: Let's talk about Joss, baby

For the record, I am of the opinion that nothing should be taboo in terms of comedy.  Nothing.  That does not mean I'm never offended by something, I certainly am.  But as Stephen Fry likes to say....

"It's now very common to hear people say, "I'm rather offended by that", as if that gives them certain rights. It's no more than a whine. It has no meaning, it has no purpose, it has no reason to be respected as a phrase. "I'm offended by that." Well, so fucking what?"

So yes, I do get offended occasionally (as stated on the commentary, Twilight's depiction of women offends me), but I also recognize that being offended is just a reaction of my ego when I am powerless to actively change something I have moral objection to.  With ALL Of that said, nothing is lower to me than something that is offensive AND not funny.  That makes my blood boil more than anything.

Eddie Doty

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Re: Let's talk about Joss, baby

As was pointed out this summer over the Daniel Tosh kerfuffle, if you can pull off comedy about a touchy subject, then great. Many people pointed to the outrage over Tosh's bit and went "WTF, Louis CK does jokes about rape and the n-word and stuff and people love him!" To which the response was: a) when Louis CK does it, rape or the n-word are the butt of the joke, not the engine of it, and b) when Louis CK does it, he's funny.

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Re: Let's talk about Joss, baby

Patrice O'Neal on rape jokes and the business of being funny.

---------------------------------------------
I would never lie. I willfully participate in a campaign of misinformation.

Re: Let's talk about Joss, baby

redxavier wrote:
Allison wrote:

I have become used to men in this industry saying disgusting things about women.

Sorry, but people seem to just want to be offended these days, and keen to want everyone to know that they're offended. I'd also be careful to actually read what people say and not just assume the attention-grabbing headline is right.

Eddie wrote:

But as Stephen Fry likes to say....

"It's now very common to hear people say, "I'm rather offended by that", as if that gives them certain rights. It's no more than a whine. It has no meaning, it has no purpose, it has no reason to be respected as a phrase. "I'm offended by that." Well, so fucking what?"

So yes, I do get offended occasionally (as stated on the commentary, Twilight's depiction of women offends me), but I also recognize that being offended is just a reaction of my ego when I am powerless to actively change something I have moral objection to.

Offended hasn’t got anything to do with it.

People have wounds. It's not about “taking offense.” If someone talks about my college being nerdy, I might be offended by that. Whatever. People who like comedy/anyone who has said something sexist or racist or homophobic seem to think the  idea that “taking offense” is lame, and anyone can “offend” whenever he or she wants to.

But causing pain and mocking wounds is quite a different matter. And if people don't get that don’t get that, I have roughly zero time to hear others defending them.

That Patrice O'Neal thing was, to use the best adjective I have, gross.  But it brings up an interesting point. He thinks joking about rape is okay because he has diabetes and jokes about it. I agree with this parallel. If you know what it is like to suffer from rape or assault, yeah, you can totally joke about it. If you are one of the 1 in 6 women (and 1 in 33 men) who have been brutally hurt, you do you. Whatever helps you heal, right? But I don't think it's funny for someone who has never known what rape or assault is like to make light of it.  I wish I could find it funny. But I don't have that luxury.

So, yeah, RedX, I don't like being offended.  It is fucking exhausting and I have things to do. Maybe the solution is for people to get their shit together instead of telling us to calm down.

Last edited by Allison (2012-11-30 19:57:02)

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Re: Let's talk about Joss, baby

Dorkman wrote:

...a) when Louis CK does it, rape or the n-word are the butt of the joke, not the engine of it, and b) when Louis CK does it, he's funny.

I don't think Tosh's off-the-cuff heckler reply was any good, but I do think he's generally funnier than Louis CK, at least on Tosh.0. CK always seems to me to sort of try too hard to be disgusting.

Admittedly, maybe I should be comparing stand-up to stand-up and Tosh.0 to Life With Louis, but that's not how I experience them.

Warning: I'm probably rewriting this post as you read it.

Zarban's House of Commentaries

Re: Let's talk about Joss, baby

I can't really envision a joke with rape as the punchline, let alone imagine it to be a funny. Oh well, I guess I just don't know 'funny' like Pactrice O'Neal (who I'd never heard of before).

And of course being offended is exhausting and you have things to do, that's why I advise only being offended about actual things that matter in your personal life, not knee jerk over generalizations on the internet like the Tony Harris post that have been twisted through projection. Most of the time, people get offended over the tiniest of things that have little to no bearing on them, stuff that they wouldn't even know about until someone else told them they should be offended.

Imagination will often carry us to worlds that never were. But without it we go nowhere. - Carl Sagan

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Re: Let's talk about Joss, baby

Allison wrote:

That Patrice O'Neal thing was, to use the best adjective I have, gross.  But it brings up an interesting point. He thinks joking about rape is okay because he has diabetes and jokes about it. I agree with this parallel. If you know what it is like to suffer from rape or assault, yeah, you can totally joke about it. If you are one of the 1 in 6 women (and 1 in 33 men) who have been brutally hurt, you do you. Whatever helps you heal, right? But I don't think it's funny for someone who has never known what rape or assault is like to make light of it.

Yes. This.

redxavier wrote:

Most of the time, people get offended over the tiniest of things that have little to no bearing on them

Except that they do, because every instance of sexism, racism, homophobia, etc. is another drop in the bucket creating a culture where people think that these things are okay. Big things only happen after enough tiny things accrue. The most effective solution is not to let any of it slide.

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Re: Let's talk about Joss, baby

I think we can all agree that it is essentially a case by case basis, and that you never know wether comedy will be either salt or salve to that wound until you've actually made the joke and put it into the ether. 

Cancer is obviously a touchy subject but man, did Tig Notaro absolutely SLAY with her 30 min set at Largo.  It was inspiring, moving, and best of all FUNNY.  Now, does that mean every attempt at humor about cancer will work like Tig's did?  No.  The alchemy that made up her set is not a recipe that can be easily replicated.  But I would rather we live in a world where people like James Gunn (who I was specifically referring to in my earlier post) are allowed to make mistakes, and own up to them, before we throw the baby out with the bathwater like Chris Braak did with his dystopian "Whatever," response.

We're all human.  We're all going to make mistakes, but lets look at patterns before we decide to just abandon someone as an artist because of one stupid fucking thing they said.

Eddie Doty

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Re: Let's talk about Joss, baby

Or, we could all have a nice cup of concrete and harden the fuck up.*

*Australian. Not good at touchy-feely.

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Re: Let's talk about Joss, baby

Dave, my guts lean this way.  I have to remind myself that my experiences are not everyone else's, nor there's mine.  I think a middle way of resilience for oneself, and empathy for everyone else, is a pretty good goal for society to aim for.  But whereas my father's generation (he was born in 1937) tipped the scale towards having a stiff upper lip probably a bit too much (as my father never acknowledged his PTSD from Nam), I fear this current generation leans too hard towards everyone wearing nerf armor.  I don't know where the proper balance is.  I'm still learning it myself.

Eddie Doty

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Re: Let's talk about Joss, baby

Dorkman wrote:

Except that they do, because every instance of sexism, racism, homophobia, etc. is another drop in the bucket creating a culture where people think that these things are okay. Big things only happen after enough tiny things accrue. The most effective solution is not to let any of it slide.

Sounds precariously like intolerance to me, which is ironic given your ultimate aim. What happens to imagined or misunderstood instances? Not everything is as cut and dry as you make it out to seem.

Imagination will often carry us to worlds that never were. But without it we go nowhere. - Carl Sagan

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Re: Let's talk about Joss, baby

You know what annoys me? And this is not in reply to anyone in particular, just thinking- I hate it when someone says something that is offensive to someone or some people but they (the offended) aren't actually allowed to say so without criticism. Sure there are those who just like to stir the shit and complain about absolutely anything regardless of how trivial but sometimes someone will say something that does hurt another's feelings. We are only human after all and it's not fair to say 'get over it' or 'man up' because I can guarantee 100% that you are not totally immune to such feelings, yourself. No matter how much you claim to be.

Again, not aimed at any one person in particular, just speaking in general smile

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Re: Let's talk about Joss, baby

I don't think it's ok for the person who caused offence to expect people to let things slide, you have to take responsibility for your own actions, and basic empathy should lead to an apology.

That said, I think we're in danger of becoming a little over-sensitive as a whole. We're made of tougher stuff, sometimes we just forget that.

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Re: Let's talk about Joss, baby

Everybody is different though, aren't they? Obviously what offends one may not offend another but why should those who find offence toughen up if something genuinely hurts them?

Nowt wrong with being sensitive once and a while smile

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