Re: Pacific Rim

Oh boy indeed. I understand you like this movie, but you're really reaching with these explanations smile


Doctor Submarine wrote:

We don't need a scene showing kaiju blood being toxic because they told us in the exposition-heavy prologue that it is. Showing is better than telling, but if you've already told then showing is redundant. Also, Idris Elba says that Perlman's team neutralizes the toxicity before going in for the remains. Not entirely justified, but not without logic.

Hey, you brought it up as a justification of why the Jaegars weren't using their most effective weapons. If that's the case, the film needs to make it the reason and show it. What the film does show is a callous disregard for collateral damage, so I'm not really sure how that's supposed to fly.

Doctor Submarine wrote:

The beast is there to destroy the buildings anyway, so damaging them in a fight to kill it isn't ridiculous at all. What, is the kaiju just supposed to rampage around the city and go home?
Charlie Day says pretty early on that the kaiju's plan is to attack the populated areas and take out the "vermin." That line was in the trailers, for god's sake. And we do see them take on a kaiju before it gets to a city in the first scene of the movie. Idris Elba specifically says that their primary priority is to protect the city. And he says it AGAIN before the Hong Kong fight.

You misunderstand, and I may be to blame here. The object is to protect the cities and save lives, right?

Option 1 - allow kaiju into city, not be allowed to use best weapons for fear of toxic blood, fight them ineffectually by punching them, practically destroy entire city in process, many thousands die, many more thousands left homeless and leave - city now a ruin

Option 2 - allow kaiju into city, use best weapons to kill it quickly, toxic blood causes some damage, many thousands leave whilst it's being cleaned up (neutralised even!) then return to city which is mostly still intact, repeat as necessary

Option 3 - kill kaiju before it gets near city with best weapons

Which of these options is the worst for protecting the city? The first. And this appears to be the most common method (all the destroyed Jaegars we see in montage are in cities plus Tokyo and Sydney). Even outside Hong Kong in the sea where they can go all out without fear of collateral damage, the best weapons aren't used and two Jaegars are destroyed because of it (and a kaiju enters the city and destroys much of it).

You can't really argue that Jaegars aren't fighting at their most efficient due to fear of collateral damage (unspecified toxic damage) when the Jaegars are essentially using collateral damage to kill the kaiju.

Killing the kaiju should have been paramount, and that could have been a theme of the story, mankind was essentially turning into beasts themselves to survive. They were cutting off arms to save the body, they were making hard choices about who to save (and none of that stupid 10 vs million choice), and they were turning to increasingly more terrible weapons to get the job done. The one interesting element, that the early pilots had been killing themselves by using the machines, is brushed aside with little exploration.


At this point, I think a comparison is in order. World War Z, the book. The human race is shown as making mistakes at the beginning, and suffers because of it, but they aren't incompetent. They've thought of how to deal with the threat and throughout the world have adapted and developed new tactics to cope, cities have been abandoned as indefensible and new defence lines have been set up, for instance, the Americans have abandoned virtually all of the coastline and retreated to the mountains.

Where is that here? Where is the common sense?

This is a war that has gone on for years (I think about a decade?) and the film instead chooses to portray mankind as idiots who opt for a plan to build a wall as their last resort. Something that would have made sense in the first 2-3 years perhaps when we were still learning and didn't quite know what we were dealing with. It makes it worst that the film presents it as an inevitable failure which the military guys don't even fight against. You know what humans came up with the last time they wanted to end a global war? Nuclear weapons.

So the question is, why does mankind have to be retarded? How does that make for a good story? How does that make the world feel real? Making characters stupid so that plot happens is the worst way to write. You seem to agree that this happens in Prometheus, but remain blind to it here.


Doctor Submarine wrote:

And why weren't there all those weapons? Because this is a movie about giant robots, and the movie where humans efficiently and effectively deal with the kaiju perfectly and without any problems would be boring.

That's the difference between good writing and lazy writing isn't it? You make your story dramatic by giving your villain great powers, not by making your heroes stupid with convenient moments of sense.



What would I have done differently?

I'd have made the story about the search for a way to end the war. Parts of the world have roaming kaijus and others are uninhabitable due to the use of nuclear weapons used early in the war. The US has a defensive line at the Appalachians, behind which everyone has moved. Jaegars work in pairs or squads with support from other branches of the military, kind of like the mechs in Patlabor and Appleseed.  They're loaded down with offensive weaponry. But the problem isn't really the kaiju, even though they're bigger and harder to take down, it's that it's neverending. They just keep coming. Mankind is getting tired, we're running low on materials due to attrition, and we're killing the planet to win.

And I'd have a scene where a Jaegar runs out of ammo and is forced to use the fists, something that no-one has ever done successfully before. This would be the goddamn climax, and like Neo in the Matrix, it would be this "what are you doing, you crazy mofo fuck me what a punch and jesus he uppercut him right in the jaw, and now look he's using a goddamn ship as a bat!" crowning moment of awesome. Instead of the... STOP USELESSLY BLUDGEONING THE CREATURE OVER AND OVER frustration we have now.

Ahem... excuse me.

Imagination will often carry us to worlds that never were. But without it we go nowhere. - Carl Sagan

Thumbs up Thumbs down

Re: Pacific Rim

Alright, let me answer this a bit more concisely. I don't care.

That's all there is to it. I. Don't. Care. A movie could have all the internal logic in the world and it wouldn't make a difference to me if it wasn't entertaining to watch. Nitpicking flaws in the story doesn't make me happy, and it's not why I watch movies. If a story genuinely has flaws that break it completely, then yeah, I'll point that out. But if the movie is fine EXCEPT that there's a better way it could have done something, well, that's a bullshit approach to criticism. Take a movie on its own terms.

I know I diverge from 99% of the people on this forum on this issue, and I'm comfortable with that. Just thought I should make it clear where I'm coming from in these discussions.

"The Doctor is Submarining through our brains." --Teague

Thumbs up +1 Thumbs down

Re: Pacific Rim

New to the forum, thought I'd pipe in here, but I'm in agreement with Dr. Sub. I watched it with my wife and we went to dinner afterwards poking holes into the entire thing. But the conversation came back to, "But it was such a fun movie!"

Boter, formerly of TF.N as Boter and DarthArjuna. I like making movies and playing games, in one order or another.

Re: Pacific Rim

Doctor Submarine wrote:

Alright, let me answer this a bit more concisely. I don't care.

That's all there is to it. I. Don't. Care. A movie could have all the internal logic in the world and it wouldn't make a difference to me if it wasn't entertaining to watch. Nitpicking flaws in the story doesn't make me happy, and it's not why I watch movies. If a story genuinely has flaws that break it completely, then yeah, I'll point that out. But if the movie is fine EXCEPT that there's a better way it could have done something, well, that's a bullshit approach to criticism. Take a movie on its own terms.

I know I diverge from 99% of the people on this forum on this issue, and I'm comfortable with that. Just thought I should make it clear where I'm coming from in these discussions.

That is very interesting...

*puts on psychology hat*

God loves you!

Thumbs up Thumbs down

Re: Pacific Rim

Just to clarify so you don't lump me in with the other detractors here, my problem with the movie is in no way logic consistency related. I think nit-picking like that is indeed kind of a waste of time given the premise of this movie. The issue is entirely related to me not caring or liking the protagonists and their shitty dialogue, and thinking the movie is entirely too light on action for me to enjoy it despite that. 1 really good set-piece doesn't justify a 2+ hour movie, if it did, most of Michael Bay's movies would be considered great too.

Thumbs up Thumbs down

Re: Pacific Rim

Does that mean you're lumping this one in with most Michael Bay movies or are they on a completely different level of suck to you?

Thumbs up Thumbs down

Re: Pacific Rim

No, it's far better than the Transformerses, which are complete and utter garbage. Honestly, as much as I hate to say it, the closest analogue in that respect is probably Pearl Harbor, which is full of awful characterization and dialogue, but the hour-long mid-movie attack sequence is the best thing Michael Bay's ever directed and pretty goddamned impressive. Pacific Rim is still better, if only for being 40 min shorter, but if I was to stack it up to any  one movie in Bay's filmography, it would be that one. Similar strengths, similar weaknesses, similar structure (boring melodrama for an hour, amazing mid-movie setpiece, kinda forgettable conclusion with cheesy ending), though Pearl Harbor is much more in bad taste since it's exploiting a national tragedy.

Sidenote: There's a really damn good 1.5 hour fan-edit of Pearl Harbor to be made, if you cut down the melodrama and end it right after the attack

Last edited by bullet3 (2013-10-15 04:53:07)

Thumbs up Thumbs down

Re: Pacific Rim

Logic consistency, AKA making sense, isn't a nitpicking area. If you can't see why a character is doing something, or why they are doing something in a particular way, then that breaks immersion and is also reflective of bad storytelling - equivalent to someone having to interrupt the campfire story to clarify something. Without coherence in story and setting, then it's just keys dangling in front of your eyes making noises and catching the light. These are the same sorts of problems that face Prometheus and countless other big blockbusters, from Battleship to Star Trek to Man of Steel. Laziness is laziness, regardless of how good it looks.

The problem here is that the lack of thought out into the world building influences the choreography, and the choreography does not match the serious tone of the movie, i.e. mankind is fighting for its very survival. If we had a kung fu movie where the final duel between hero and the villain that murdered his parents lacked the intensity and emotion we would expect, or a lightsabre fight just went on and on, we would lose interest.  Fights between giant robots and monsters actually become boring. I find this to be a problem when it's the main attraction. I point out issues stem in the story because I see their effects on the battles to be detrimental.

I so wanted to love this one, I'm a huge fan of mech anime. But I'm not really entertained watching a man punch a zombie over and over (in a serious movie about the apocalypse). 


To be clear, I really have no problem seeing that people have found it enjoyable, parts of it had me squealing in delight! But let's not claim that it's a good story and features great worldbuilding, or that it's fine except for a few nitpicks. That's delusion.

Also, nitpicking is pointing out that the kaiju couldn't possibly have flown that high on its wings and that Gypsy wouldn't have been going fast enough to experience re-entry burn up, or that creatures that size couldn't possibly exist in the first place.

Imagination will often carry us to worlds that never were. But without it we go nowhere. - Carl Sagan

Thumbs up Thumbs down

Re: Pacific Rim

Yeah, the problem with that is that I have yet to hear a convincing argument against the film's logical consistency. As for the characters and dialogue, I had no problem with either. It's a fun action movie and its characters and dialogue reflect its ambitions.

"The Doctor is Submarining through our brains." --Teague

Thumbs up Thumbs down

Re: Pacific Rim

http://mamamarmalade.com/wp-content/uploads/2013/01/fingers-in-ears.jpg

Imagination will often carry us to worlds that never were. But without it we go nowhere. - Carl Sagan

Thumbs up Thumbs down

Re: Pacific Rim

Hey man, if you get joy out of tearing this movie down, more power to you. I'll be over here enjoying the movie itself.

"The Doctor is Submarining through our brains." --Teague

Thumbs up Thumbs down

Re: Pacific Rim

Doctor Submarine wrote:

Yeah, the problem with that is that I have yet to hear a convincing argument against the film's logical consistency.

not long to go now...

Thumbs up Thumbs down

Re: Pacific Rim

Boter wrote:

New to the forum, thought I'd pipe in here, but I'm in agreement with Dr. Sub. I watched it with my wife and we went to dinner afterwards poking holes into the entire thing. But the conversation came back to, "But it was such a fun movie!"

Holy shit it's Boter. About time you made your way over to these parts.

"ShadowDuelist is a god."
        -Teague Chrystie

Thumbs up Thumbs down

Re: Pacific Rim

ShadowDuelist wrote:
Boter wrote:

New to the forum, thought I'd pipe in here, but I'm in agreement with Dr. Sub. I watched it with my wife and we went to dinner afterwards poking holes into the entire thing. But the conversation came back to, "But it was such a fun movie!"

Holy shit it's Boter. About time you made your way over to these parts.

I've gotten that a few times, prior to joining up. Teague's registration email said ABOUT DAMN TIME.

Boter, formerly of TF.N as Boter and DarthArjuna. I like making movies and playing games, in one order or another.

Re: Pacific Rim

Doctor Submarine wrote:

Yeah, the problem with that is that I have yet to hear a convincing argument against the film's logical consistency. As for the characters and dialogue, I had no problem with either. It's a fun action movie and its characters and dialogue reflect its ambitions.

See, I didn't enjoy PacRim, and a bit part of it is because of the annoying characters (those effin' scientists). That, plus things like "We had a sword the whole time!" completely ruined it for me, not to mention the clunky story structure that makes the first G.I. Joe look like a thoughtful narrative. Yeah, the robots and creatures were nifty, but when I was watching it, I didn't get nearly the level of excitement I was hoping for.

I wanted to like it, too. I <3 del Toro and you and I are of a similar mind on what matters when critiquing a film. PacRim just rubbed me the wrong way.

"Defending bad movies is VaporTrail's religion."
-DorkmanScott

Re: Pacific Rim

I only had two minor problems with it...

1. I couldn't see the kaiju and jaeger fighting because it was (a) too dark (b) too wet (c) edited too fast (d) camera too unstable and (e) zoomed in too close
2. Even if you could see the fisticuffs, the fight sequences were too short, resulting in the rest of the movie playing like a glossy Asylum straight-to-video job with D-list actors and 10 clichés-per-minute screenplay.

I wanted giant monsters versus kickass robots in a Matrix Burly-Brawl punch-up trashing Manhattan.

not long to go now...

Thumbs up Thumbs down

Re: Pacific Rim

http://www.hitfix.com/in-contention/alf … Lhu6hE2inN

Heh.

ZangrethorDigital.ca

Re: Pacific Rim

Re: Pacific Rim

Trey wrote:

"No, there's still something left. Activate the sack of hammers."

not long to go now...

Thumbs up Thumbs down