Re: #54 - Is the VFX industry imploding?

Dave wrote:

http://zedomax.com/blog/wp-content/uploads/2010/08/dab-of-vaseline-450x270.jpg


Then it'll look like four Cybill Shepherds from Moonlighting on the couches.

Dorkman wrote:

Oh crap. Now I have to start looking presentable.

Just constantly pose the same way you are in your avatar, all rugged and pondering.

Thumbs up Thumbs down

Re: #54 - Is the VFX industry imploding?

Scott Squires on Twitter tonight:

There were a few questionable comments in the Down in Front vfx podcast. As with anything take it with a grain of salt. #vfx

https://twitter.com/scott_squires/statu … 5767745537

---------------------------------------------
I would never lie. I willfully participate in a campaign of misinformation.

Re: #54 - Is the VFX industry imploding?

"A few"?   Better than our usual average, then.

Re: #54 - Is the VFX industry imploding?

Oh, weird.

It's astounding how often I forget people can see us.

Teague Chrystie

I have a tendency to fix your typos.

Thumbs up Thumbs down

Re: #54 - Is the VFX industry imploding?

Fortunately it's not a lot of people.  Just a few questionable ones.

tongue

Re: #54 - Is the VFX industry imploding?

Trey wrote:

"A few"?   Better than our usual average, then.

Does this mean you guys are moving up the social ladder?
Don't forget the little people

God loves you!

Thumbs up Thumbs down

Re: #54 - Is the VFX industry imploding?

to return to topic...

http://www.guardian.co.uk/film/2013/feb … life-of-pi

not long to go now...

Thumbs up Thumbs down

Re: #54 - Is the VFX industry imploding?

I don't know why there are tears for R&H.

First of all:

From a quick google of the situation, Rhythm & Hues filed for Chapter 13 bankruptcy. There are two types of bankruptcy in the corporate world: chapters 11 and 13. Chapter 11 is liquidation bankruptcy - sell off EVERYTHING and the company dies. The creditors get everything and everyone gets screwed! Yay!

Chapter 13 is reorganization bankruptcy. It allows the corporation to cancel out all sorts of debts and (union) contracts and most of their supply contracts but continue to exist.

My bet is that Rhythm & Hues sells all of their good assets to a newly-organized LLC or other corporate entity who will then relocate the vast majority of their business to India, China, BC or some combination of the three. Maybe some other organization as well. Everything else that is not sold to the new LLC will be left in an old LLC or other entity and left to the creditors to pick over.

Basically, the only people who REALLY get screwed are the current employees and the creditors. So fuck R&H.

On a grander level, I don't want to say LA's VFX artists are totally, completely, and irreversibly screwed... but they are. R&H is probably going to set up shop somewhere much cheaper; be it India, China, or even Canada the only business logic is to move. And this will be the trend across the board.

/whatever this post is.

Thumbs up Thumbs down

Re: #54 - Is the VFX industry imploding?

iJim wrote:

From a quick google of the situation, Rhythm & Hues filed for Chapter 13 bankruptcy.

I don't know what google you're looking at, but they filed for Chapter 11.

iJim wrote:

R&H is probably going to set up shop somewhere much cheaper; be it India, China, or even Canada the only business logic is to move.

They're already in all three places. Didn't help them any.

Thumbs up Thumbs down

Re: #54 - Is the VFX industry imploding?

Their official statement:

R&H is filing for Chapter 11 reorganization in the U.S. Bankruptcy Court and hope to be in front of a Bankruptcy judge in the next couple days. In the meantime, all of our offices remain open, our clients are aware of the process; we have obtained commitments for financing to complete projects in house at the quality level the studios have come to expect.

Following the filing, R+H will be seeking to secure financing for future growth. I believe that we are going to come out of this situation stronger, more efficient, and as prolific as we are now.

Now, if they don't find that future financing they may still go under, of course - but it's not their official plan yet.

Re: #54 - Is the VFX industry imploding?

Dorkman wrote:
iJim wrote:

R&H is probably going to set up shop somewhere much cheaper; be it India, China, or even Canada the only business logic is to move.

They're already in all three places. Didn't help them any.

That was predicated on chapter 13 - which is how I read it through the whiskey last night. But their overseas operations don't matter if they're still paying VFX artists stateside.

You can keep clanging pots together in the hope that enough noise will change basic economic principals, but it won't. It will always be cheaper to employ outside of the west. And corporations will go in that direction. A VFX artist in India is just as talented as one here. And the training *there* is both on the job and cheap.

If we can import cars, phones, and website development, we can roto and composite overseas. Seriously, start looking for new a new line of work.

Note: it's with no joy that I say any of this. It sucks and is a bummer. But car manufacturing was a way more vital component of the American economy and we lost that too. VFX ain't nothing comparatively.

Thumbs up Thumbs down

Re: #54 - Is the VFX industry imploding?

Trey wrote:

Their official statement:

R&H is filing for Chapter 11 reorganization in the U.S. Bankruptcy Court and hope to be in front of a Bankruptcy judge in the next couple days. In the meantime, all of our offices remain open, our clients are aware of the process; we have obtained commitments for financing to complete projects in house at the quality level the studios have come to expect.

Following the filing, R+H will be seeking to secure financing for future growth. I believe that we are going to come out of this situation stronger, more efficient, and as prolific as we are now.

Now, if they don't find that future financing they may still go under, of course - but it's not their official plan yet.

To quote me:

"My bet is that Rhythm & Hues sells all of their good assets to a newly-organized LLC or other corporate entity who will then relocate the vast majority of their business to India, China, BC or some combination of the three. Maybe some other organization as well. Everything else that is not sold to the new LLC will be left in an old LLC or other entity and left to the creditors to pick over."

They can actually still do the above under chapter 11. Which is likely how they'll get a chunk of financing.

Thumbs up Thumbs down

Re: #54 - Is the VFX industry imploding?

It's not like there is any money in the business or anything.... oh well no trade org. no employment.

Thumbs up Thumbs down

Re: #54 - Is the VFX industry imploding?

Jim, keep it up. I want to hear the challenging shit from the outside of this thing.

Teague Chrystie

I have a tendency to fix your typos.

Thumbs up Thumbs down

Re: #54 - Is the VFX industry imploding?

If someone who disagrees with me (Mike, you) wants to raise specific points of discussion I'll be happy to engage them. Otherwise I could just link you to books and lectures on the topic of outsourcing, globalization, and basic market economy.

I'm sure Dave and Zarban (and it seems Trey) also have a good sense of what I'm talking about too.

Thumbs up Thumbs down

Re: #54 - Is the VFX industry imploding?

Wait. Full stop. What are we talking about here? The legal maneuvering that R&H will use to stay alive and screw the artists or a larger conversation about keeping American VFX artists in the states?

Thumbs up Thumbs down

Re: #54 - Is the VFX industry imploding?

http://thebillfold.com/2013/02/why-ther … he-oscars/

Turns out Brian was right, btw. People with no involvement in the industry are posting articles like this on Twitter. Rudely cutting off that speech was the best thing that could have happened in that moment. It drew much more attention to the issue that his actual speech probably would have.

"The Doctor is Submarining through our brains." --Teague

Thumbs up Thumbs down

Re: #54 - Is the VFX industry imploding?

iJim wrote:

I'm sure Dave and Zarban (and it seems Trey) also have a good sense of what I'm talking about too.

Yep.   Haven't I already established myself pretty firmly as the Debbie Downer of DiF on this particular topic? 

I think I mentioned the collapse of the American garment industry in this podcast (there's also the auto industry as an obvious example, and many others).   And the garment industry even attempted to wage a public relations campaign to raise awareness about the issue of outsourcing.   Anyone my age can probably remember the "look for the union label" jingle that the Garment Worker's Union ran as a television commercial in the '70's.

In the end... didn't work.  Less than 5% of clothing Americans buy today is made in America.  It was inevitable.  People wanted cheaper clothes, they didn't care where they came from.  And the average moviegoer doesn't care who makes The Hulk either.

VFX may unionize one of these days, and if they do that will protect workers a bit as far as wages and working conditions.  But it won't do anything about outsourcing.   More and more, VFX will become like cars and clothes - some of it will still be made in America, but most of it will be done elsewhere.     It's already happening and it's not going to get better.

Re: #54 - Is the VFX industry imploding?

I'm not sure if there's anything else to add to this conversation; the buggy whips are cheaper o'er seas.

Unless there's a clear differentiator in quality, cost is going to win out. Off the shelf solutions get better every day, and millions of hungry grads hit the streets each year, full of enthusiasm and utterly naive.

It will take paying customers demanding change to make a difference, and this is terrible. Despite making good money in corporate-land, all I really want to do is make lightsabers, grade, and give inanimate objects life. And it seems this is never going to happen, if I want to support my family by doing so.

Thumbs up Thumbs down

Re: #54 - Is the VFX industry imploding?

So, as I understand it, VFX artists feel under appreciated. They're being overworked and underpaid. Is it possible for VFX artists to initiate a strike, similar to Actors' strikes and Writers' strikes in the past when they felt the same way?

Thumbs up Thumbs down

Re: #54 - Is the VFX industry imploding?

From what I understand, that would be difficult to do without some sort of union.
Of course I know next to nothing on the whole affair, but for what it's worth, I'm rooting for you guys.

Thumbs up Thumbs down

Re: #54 - Is the VFX industry imploding?

From what I've gathered, the problem is that if artists stop working right now, other artists will take the jobs. If artists demand reasonable pay and benefits, studios will find someone willing to work for less. There has to be a union before any kind of strike action will be effective.

Thumbs up Thumbs down

Re: #54 - Is the VFX industry imploding?

Technically a strike is a specific action that a union can undertake to protest unfair wages or working conditions.    Strikers are subject to certain legal guidelines, but also enjoy some legal protections as well.

But VFX workers have no union (so far) - so if they did the same, it would be called "not showing up for work" and they'd probably just get fired. 

Now union or no, if enough people did it at once - so that there weren't enough warm bodies to hire to fill the empty seats - then maybe it would have an effect.   But getting that many people to do it is no mean feat.  At least a union can order all its members to stop work, to guarantee the strike will have the intended effect.

Another disadvantage that FX workers have is that - unlike actors, writers, directors, grips, virtually everyone else in the biz - FX workers don't work for the studios.   When writers strike, they strike against the studio, and the studio can't get any writing done. 

But it's not that way with fx.   You can't stop working for a company you don't work for.  So if FX workers successfully organized a strike, they'd be walking out on their employers - which are independent fx companies, not movie studios.   

Nothing would have been gained if Rhythm and Hues' workforce stopped work - it would just have meant Rhythm and Hues would have gone under sooner.   Depending on their deal with the studios, there'd either be damages owed, or a big insurance payout somewhere... none of which would help the workers directly.    People would be out of a job, a company would probably go under, but the movie would still get made - the studio would just pull the job and send it somewhere else. 

That's one of the problems with the unfocused angst among the rank and file right now - there's not even a consensus about who the bad guy is yet.    The labor force got shafted by Rhythm and Hues - that's who they were working for, after all - and yet many are also mad that "Rhythm and Hues" got dissed at the Oscars.     

Well, you can't be pro-management AND pro-labor at the same time - not if you want to actually get anywhere.   

The Visual Effects Society - the closest thing FX has to an organization of any kind - is planning to organize an industry meeting soon, in hopes of actually figuring out some kind of coherent strategy to accomplish anything at all.   But VES is mostly just in the business of giving out awards, and a lot of the rank and file seem disinterested in looking to them for any kind of leadership.   

Which leaves the rank and file without any leadership at all, and thus nothing's likely to change unless a Hitler steps up to rally the downtrodden with promises of unicorns and rainbows or whatever.

As for me... I'm from the past.  Go to China.

Re: #54 - Is the VFX industry imploding?

I think I learn more from Trey than I do at University.

Thumbs up +1 Thumbs down

Re: #54 - Is the VFX industry imploding?

Withkittens wrote:

I think I learn more from Trey than I do at University.

My film class today spent a lot of time talking about Trey, so the effect is compounded for me.

Thumbs up Thumbs down