Topic: Magic Beans (LOST spoilers, I guess)

Let's talk about magic beans. This comes out of a discussion on Lost, but let me define this before we go there.

As defined, a magic bean is the one piece of magic that you have to accept for a story. The Force. The Sun burning out. The core of the Earth stops spinning. Robin Williams is funny.

You accept it, the story is told, and everyone's happy. If they introduce another magic bean, an argument can be made that the story falls apart.

OK, so there we go.

So what do you think of magic beans? What's your favorite magic bean? Do you think magic beans need explanation, or should they be left completely mysterious?

How does this relate to Lost? So the question is, what is the magic bean of Lost? Is there more than one? Is it OK that the magic bean was left mysterious until the end?

And what's the difference between a magic bean and a McGuffin? I'd argue that the Island was the McGuffin, and the light itself was the magic bean, but…I want to know what you think.

And I want to hear what you have to say from other stories, too. PLEASE, pull in references to other TV shows, books, movies, plays, unproduced screenplays, fanfilms you made in 7th grade. Go.

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Re: Magic Beans (LOST spoilers, I guess)

This started from a conversation we were having about Lost, and if the island can be a magic bean if nobody is quite sure what it can do for the story at any given moment. Does that make it a Wonderland scenario, or is it okay for a magic bean to never be explained in a satisfying way?

Teague Chrystie

I have a tendency to fix your typos.

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Re: Magic Beans (LOST spoilers, I guess)

I'm too busy to make a tl, dr post at the moment, but I'll sum up with this:

The magic bean of Lost was the Island and whatever the central mystery of it was. Presumably, whatever the magic bean was, was powering all the crazy stuff happening there.

All well and good.

Until --spoilers-- the flash sideways in the last season turn out to be purgatory, an entirely different magic bean.

So, basically, the producers of Lost introduced a second magic bean in the last season and spent the finale explaining that, while leaving the Island magic bean substantially unexplained (not wholly, mind you, but substantially).

Re: Magic Beans (LOST spoilers, I guess)

I still don't know how Wonderland scenarios fit into the grand scheme of storytelling theory, admittedly.

But I think everyone's presumption was that all the crazy stuff would ultimately be traced back to one magic bean. If, for example, the island turned out to be an alien spaceship, would you be able to consistently explain everything that had come before through that avenue?

And that was the test of Lost that some felt it could pass and some felt it couldn't. That's the sentiment of, "There's no way they're going to be able to tie all that random shit together" is essentially a way of saying, "There's no way they'll be able to tie that all back to one magic bean."

Re: Magic Beans (LOST spoilers, I guess)

BrianFinifter wrote:

And that was the test of Lost that some felt it could pass and some felt it couldn't. That's the sentiment of, "There's no way they're going to be able to tie all that random shit together" is essentially a way of saying, "There's no way they'll be able to tie that all back to one magic bean."

What do you think of my comparison of the power of the light to Star Wars' Force? They're both huge, nebulous powers, the constraints of which, and the source of which, are never entirely explained, but which are necessary to push forward the story?

BrianFinifter again wrote:

So, basically, the producers of Lost introduced a second magic bean in the last season and spent the finale explaining that, while leaving the Island magic bean substantially unexplained (not wholly, mind you, but substantially).

This, right here, is the ACTUAL genesis of the thread.

Brian says that a magic bean should be explained.

I completely disagree. I think that magic beans are specifically supposed to not be explained, ever.

Please, someone tell me why I'm wrong. With examples.

still BrianFinifter wrote:

I still don't know how Wonderland scenarios fit into the grand scheme of storytelling theory, admittedly.

I'm not sure how 'Wonderland' differs from 'there's more than one magic bean, but I liked the movie anyway.'

Last edited by Gregory Harbin (2010-05-25 23:34:28)

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Re: Magic Beans (LOST spoilers, I guess)

The difference is that Star Wars is basically a Wonderland fantasy movie. It's not trying to justify its starting point in our real world. It tells you that right up front with, "A long time ago in a galaxy far, far away."

On the other hand, Jack and the rest took off from Earth Los Angeles aboard an Earth 747 and flew threw Earth air and over Earth water. Maybe I could be things more had all the magic and mystery been strictly contained to the Island, but that is not the case.

Re: Magic Beans (LOST spoilers, I guess)

I think were really edging into the area where personal definitions are really the issue.

Does a "Magic Bean" really ever need to be explained. I would argue that as long as we have an idea of what it is in concept, that is enough.

If we go with the arguement that "magic" is the magic bean in Harry Potter, it's not like we need to know HOW it works, rather that it does.

The magic bean of Sixth Sense is most assuredly the fact that this kid can "See Dead People" but ... yeah it's been a while but do we really ever know why? I don't think so and that's fine.

I would argue that both Magic Beans & Mcguffins are by there nature better off unexplored.

We see vailidity to that when we get the god awe-full miteclorians (sp) in Phantom Menace, which is a blatant attempt to explain the magic bean of the Force.

(as a side note, I always rationalized that one as a causality issue, these Jedi had noticed that all the force users had a measurable amount of this micro-organism in proportion to their ability, but cause and effect were never linked, I always thought it made more sense that it just happened that there was this bitty thing that was really attracted to a property of the Force using persons physiology, or static cling, and they just gathered more around and inside them the more powerfull they were. So once again basic logic failed them, just like the thinking that "balance to the force" would mean good would win ... umm doesn't balance infer that you would be essentially stalemated with the opposition? and thats were you ended up ... so result)

Sorry got sidetracked.

Yeah so I think that we could really argue that the Island was the "magic bean" we partially tried to explain it over the season, leading largely to more questions (electromagnetism and energy pockets) and then again at the end with the cave of glowy light energy, but that resulted in the same kinds of issues as the Star Wars justification.

It just is, deal with it.

And while I personally was happy with the FlashSideways resolution of "purgatory" I can definitely see the argument that it's a second bean out of nowhere, preying on the previously established formats of flashing back and forward. I just find myself giving them this one.

And no, working on Lost in its final season isn't influencing my perspective much, I still came at pretty much each episode as puzzled as to what was going to happen as the general populace.

Well that was a nice long ranty first post.

See what I've worked on recently here:
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And ways to get in touch with me at:
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Re: Magic Beans (LOST spoilers, I guess)

Hell yeah it was, welcome to the forum.

Teague Chrystie

I have a tendency to fix your typos.

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Re: Magic Beans (LOST spoilers, I guess)

Seth_Brower wrote:

We see vailidity to that when we get the god awe-full miteclorians (sp) in Phantom Menace, which is a blatant attempt to explain the magic bean of the Force.

(as a side note, I always rationalized that one as a causality issue, these Jedi had noticed that all the force users had a measurable amount of this micro-organism in proportion to their ability, but cause and effect were never linked, I always thought it made more sense that it just happened that there was this bitty thing that was really attracted to a property of the Force using persons physiology, or static cling, and they just gathered more around and inside them the more powerfull they were. So once again basic logic failed them, just like the thinking that "balance to the force" would mean good would win ... umm doesn't balance infer that you would be essentially stalemated with the opposition? and thats were you ended up ... so result)

What's always bugged me far more then the medichlorians in the scene where their introduced is that Qui-Gon plugs the blood sample into his comlink to send to Obi-Wan for analysis. Do they have the ability to quickly and easily teleport matter in Star Wars? If so, why aren't they using it on a larger scale?

"ShadowDuelist is a god."
        -Teague Chrystie

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Re: Magic Beans (LOST spoilers, I guess)

The idea of a magic bean - at least the way we intended it when we coined the term, tho the concept itself we ripped off from Blake Snyder - is that it's the thing that requires no explanation.   

We called it a magic bean as a reference to Jack and the Beanstalk, in which magic beans grow a beanstalk up to the clouds overnight.    For the sake of the story, you just have to accept that that's what those beans do.     

Trying to actually give any real-life explanation of how in the hell that actually works is exactly the wrong thing to do, because there's really no way to justify that.   You're usually better off just saying, "it just works that way, deal with it".

A McGuffin is different, it doesn't have to be a magical thing.  It makes the plot happen, but that's nothing to do with what it IS.      So Marcellus Wallace's briefcase is a McGuffin.     It doesn't  matter what's in there, the actual contents don't affect the story in the least.   It only matters that everyone wants it and that's why the story happens.

Re: Magic Beans (LOST spoilers, I guess)

The audience has to know what the magic beans do (create giant beanstalks that reach up to a cloud-land where a giant lives) but it is not necessary to explain how (Shakespeare waves off Hamlet's father's ghost with: "There are more things in heaven and earth, Horatio, than are dreamt of in your philosophy").

What makes the magic beans magic beans is that the audience implicitly knows that they must accept them without question and willingly suspend their disbelief or else the rest of the story isn't going to be any fun, whether that's magic beans, light sabers, or talking animals.

It's when you add a second, unrelated or contrary type of magic bean that audiences become upset because you have effectively changed the rules of your story's universe. For me, that's adding the bizarre, religio-deterministic prophecy of "the one" to the science fiction of The Matrix. Alice in Wonderland actually does not do that, and therefore "Wonderland" a poor choice of examples of "magic bean proliferation". AiW works because it has just one central conceit (the literary term for "magic beans"): a bizarre land of Victorian pop culture characters exists that can be accessed via a rabbit hole.

A TV series is inherently different from a film, tho, because in a series, you expect the universe of the story to be expanded as it goes. Star Trek: TOS is a good example of that; crazy new shit happening all the time underscores the central conceit that we are exploring places (ludicrously far apart and populated by creatures often ridiculously similar to ourselves) where no man has gone before.

Of course, there is the danger, as seems to have happened in Lost for a lot of people (I wasn't a viewer), that you will unveil a new wrinkle in the fabric of your universe too late in the story or simply too silly and turn people off. (R2 has rockets?! Supergirl has a super-horse?!)

Warning: I'm probably rewriting this post as you read it.

Zarban's House of Commentaries

Re: Magic Beans (LOST spoilers, I guess)

I wasn't there for the Lost party, so I kinda feel like I'm butting into an overheard conversation.

We can talk about magic beans and Wonderland, but really what we're dancing around is the notion of willing suspension of disbelief. All stories are false; that's what distinguishes stories from histories. But some stories aren't merely false, but impossibly false. Sometimes authors spew out shit that's just completely ridiculous, but the audience goes along with it anyway. The audience has, for whatever reason, chosen to check their disbelief at the door for the duration of that story.

I'm gonna tell you guys now about one of my all-time favorite shows. You've probably heard of it. It was a speculative-fiction-type show, set in a universe parallel to ours. The world of the show was almost identical to ours, but not precisely. Some major details were different. There were different countries, the maps were different, recent history was different. The whole premise of the show revolved around some event sometime in the 70s that caused the in-show universe's timeline to diverge from our own. It was a big mystery on top of which this character-driven story was constructed. The show always played a little fast-and-loose with the chronology — they did a lot of flashbacks, in particular — but in the last couple seasons the writers got more ambitious, playing with flash-forwards and Rashomon-style point-of-view shifts. But under it all, throughout the whole show, there was this one underlying mystery.

And you know what? That central mystery of how the two timelines diverged, the big back-story of just exactly what happened to cause the differences? It was never explained. The finale came and went, and absolutely no explanations were ever offered for it.

I am, of course, talking about "The West Wing."

Now Jeffery, you say. Surely you are being silly. Surely you are making up lies to entertain strangers over the Internet. But I say to you that I am not. Think about it. In the universe of "The West Wing," not only is there a different president, but they have their presidential elections in the wrong years! Obviously it's a parallel universe that diverged at some point from our own.

And yes, there were Internet people who got lost in the tall grass on that one. Here's my personal favorite fan theory: When Agnew resigned, Nixon appointed Ford to be the new vice president, just like in our world. When Nixon subsequently resigned himself, Ford succeeded him becoming the only president in US history to assume the office without ever having been elected as either president or vice president — again, as in our world. The point of divergence is that, seeing a possible Constitutional crisis looming, Congress called for a special election in November of 74, in which Ford won a full term and was reelected in 78 — he was eligible for two full terms under the 22nd — which threw the cadence of elections off, leading to Bartlet being elected in 98.

But that's just a fan theory. I read it on the Internet. It's not in the story itself. In the story, Bartlet's the president, elections happen on different years, and that's just how it is. It doesn't matter. It doesn't bother anybody. And the fact that how-this-all-came-to-be was never explained didn't stop the show from becoming one of the most acclaimed and popular shows ever until Sorkin quit and the new fucker Wells left Leo dying in the woods and I absolutely refused ever to watch another episode after that. Fucker.

Ahem. Anyway.

An author always proposes to make a deal with his audience. He says, "If you give me your attention and your credence, I will captivate you." Notice that's an equation with three variables: attention, credence and captivation. If the author doesn't captivate the audience, it doesn't really matter how much attention or credence he asked for; even a five-minute, totally-grounded short film can bore. On the other hand, if the story is sufficiently captivating, the audience will go along with anything, and virtually for as long as the author keeps talking. In that way, we are all still children. When we reach the end of a beloved bedtime story, we all want to ask, "And then what happened?"

Though I didn't participate in the whole Lost thing myself, it sounds like a lot of people got suckered into a different kind of deal with the authors. It sounds like the deal those authors pitched was, "If you give me your attention, I will tell you a secret." Maybe you were captivated along the way, maybe you weren't, I dunno, that's between you and your God. But from what I've heard over the past couple days, at least a few people (mostly folks I know on Twitter) were, by the end, only in it for the answers. And those folks came away disappointed. Because at the very end, the authors pulled a Vader and altered the deal. "No, no," they said. "You were supposed to be captivated this whole time. See, it's not about the secret, it's about the characters."

To which at least a few of my acquaintances said, "Fuck that shit."

My advice, if I were in an advice-handing-out mood, would be to be ever suspicious of an author who promises you great wonders tomorrow in exchange for your attention today. Appealing to pure monkey curiosity is easy, and rarely worth doing.

But underneath all this wankery is a concept I call "the stupid line." I call it that because I just don't know how else to describe it. At least with me, there sometimes comes a point where a tiny homunculus of Graham Chapman appears in my head dressed in a brigadier's uniform and goes "Right, stop this now, this is entirely too silly." I don't always see him coming, either. Often I'm right with the author all the way — "and then the daddy fish meets another fish with anterograde amnesia, yes, yes, and then what?" — until wham. Suddenly we've hit the stupid line.

The stupid line is, for me, the point where I'm no longer sufficiently captivated to extend the author any more credit. It might be because I've been asked too much all at once — the second magic bean, in Brian's terms — or it might be because I think I'm gonna have to shell out more attention than I want to get to the good part. For me, Lost fell into the second category. Roundabout the middle of the first season I suddenly just couldn't be arsed any more, because I was of the opinion that the authors were more interested in setting things up than paying things off. And frankly, the characters weren't sufficiently interesting to me to justify sitting on my couch for an hour a week watching inexplicable shit happen in an inexplicable place.

But that's just me.

Sorry. I used way too many words.

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Re: Magic Beans (LOST spoilers, I guess)

These are some of the best posts I have ever seen. Teague, you were right to have faith in these people. I need to give it all some thought before my next post, so, I'll edit this in a bit if there haven't been too many posts below me.

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Re: Magic Beans (LOST spoilers, I guess)

Two things. One, Zarban super eloquently nailed it with his saying "we do have to know what magic beans do, like make a beanstalk." I agree.

Two, Jeffery just fucking owned my tight little virgin pussy with his West Wing bit. I read that aloud to my girlfriend just now, it was so awesome.

Teague Chrystie

I have a tendency to fix your typos.

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Re: Magic Beans (LOST spoilers, I guess)

downinfront wrote:

Two things. One, Zarban super eloquently nailed it with his saying "we do have to know what magic beans do, like make a beanstalk." I agree.

I kinda agree. We have to know what they did. I'd argue that almost every episode of Lost tells us something about what the power of the Island does.

What Brian has argued to me, and what I'm sensing from a lot of people, is that they think we need to know EVERYTHING the magic bean does.

Which is a fair point, but: do we know everything the Jedi can do? Or does Obi-Wan constantly in ANH do stuff that we didn't realize he could do before then. Do we know all the ramifications of the unknown magic bean in the West Wing world? Certainly not.

If you reveal everything about a magic bean's capabilities before you have to, you risk boring the audience. I certainly didn't know that magic could save people's souls from death until book SIX of Harry Potter.

So when you tell me that the power of the Island can be passed from person to person by drinking water, and that the power of the Island can create an afterlife so friends who have passed on can be together once more before heading on to Heaven or whatever, I go with you. It's still tied back to the magic bean, which I'm accepting because it's a magic bean.

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Re: Magic Beans (LOST spoilers, I guess)

Well, I think there's a statute of limitations. In a film series, this can even go six movies, if you're not adding huge story-changing powers to the bean in question. ("Oh, Yoda can catch and re-direct the energy from force lightning. Nifty.") On a TV show, if you spend as many seasons adding mind-bending, story-changing, hugely influential powers to the magic beans...it might not be illegal or anything, but folks are going to accuse you of making everything up as you went.

Teague Chrystie

I have a tendency to fix your typos.

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Re: Magic Beans (LOST spoilers, I guess)

Jeffery Harrell wrote:

The point of divergence is that, seeing a possible Constitutional crisis looming, Congress called for a special election in November of 74, in which Ford won a full term and was reelected in 78....

Ford elected to two terms?! Now that's some magic beans!

I say Rockefeller took the nom away from Reagan (Nixon's rivals in '68), but was defeated in the general election by none other than Lauren Bacall.

Warning: I'm probably rewriting this post as you read it.

Zarban's House of Commentaries

Re: Magic Beans (LOST spoilers, I guess)

downinfront wrote:

Well, I think there's a statute of limitations. In a film series, this can even go six movies, if you're not adding huge story-changing powers to the bean in question. ("Oh, Yoda can catch and re-direct the energy from force lightning. Nifty.") On a TV show, if you spend as many seasons adding mind-bending, story-changing, hugely influential powers to the magic beans...it might not be illegal or anything, but folks are going to accuse you of making everything up as you went.

Yeah, thing is, there weren't that many mind-bending, story changing powers. Heck, I think it's just:

1. protects the goodness of the world
2. can transport items through time and space if handled correctly
3. turns you into magical smoke if you try to touch it
4. allows the Protector to grant immortality to whom he choses
5. generates a special electromagnetic field which hides the Island from the outside world and traps souls of the departed

Sure, those are a little looney when written out like that, but over six seasons and 100 hours of the show, that's not too crazy. Compare that to the Force, which allows those who control it (who are usually spontaneously generated) to:

1. Bend matter to their will
2. Control the thoughts of others
3. 'See' without their eyes
4. See into the future
5. Meet themselves in a cave wearing the suit of their nemesis
6. Have children who also can control the Force

Oh, and sometimes it creates a virgin birth.

And that's only in *12* hours.

Last edited by Gregory Harbin (2010-05-26 04:01:58)

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Re: Magic Beans (LOST spoilers, I guess)

Not to be an ass, but I totally called the West Wing thing. But I've read the Ford-special-election theory before.

My point isn't that you have to know everything the magic bean can do. The writers don't have to give you the manual before hand. But they have to have the manual. And whether or not they have it will come across in the final product. I buy Constantine not because they explain the manual to me, but because they've clearly worked the manual out for themselves. And that comes across in the final product.

The deeper point, I think, is this: Every story needs to have a point and exist to tell that point. Any piece of that story that doesn't vitally serve a function in communicating that point doesn't belong there. Any story without a point becomes a collection of shit just happening.

When you create the magic bean, you're doing it to help you communicate that point. And that bean shouldn't allow you to do anything else other than what's necessary to communicate your point. When you know what you're point is, you know what you need your magic bean to do and nothing else. When you don't, it becomes the storytelling equivalent of rambling.

We've been listening to stories our entire lives and culturally for thousands and thousands of years. I think as a species, we've developed a finely honed intuition about when it's a story with a point and internal consistency and when it's just a bunch of shit that's happening. You've listened to a really good storyteller tell a story (I know because you've listened to Trey) and you've listened to a guy rambling with no real idea of what his point is (I know because you've listened to Teague). We can tell the difference, even if we can't tell what the difference is.

Lost was a special case in the sense that it was borderline for very long. It was obviously rambling early on but seemed like it had figured itself out with enough time to pull things together by the end. Turns out, sadly, it wasn't the case. I, for one, was rooting for it.

EDIT: Oh, and I always figured that the ratifying of the Constitution had just occurred slightly off schedule, one or two states held out for a combined period of time that added up to about two years. With the Ford special election theory, you still have to account for how the major political actors on the stage are all completely different. Logically, we should have a Senator Vinnick or they should have a Senator McCain.

But it's just a TV show, I should really just relax.

ROBOT ROLL CALL!

Last edited by Brian (2010-05-26 05:09:57)

Re: Magic Beans (LOST spoilers, I guess)

BrianFinifter wrote:

Every story needs to have a point and exist to tell that point. ... When you create the magic bean, you're doing it to help you communicate that point. And that bean shouldn't allow you to do anything else other than what's necessary to communicate your point. When you know what you're point is, you know what you need your magic bean to do and nothing else. When you don't, it becomes the storytelling equivalent of rambling.

I think you're restricting the concept of the magic beans too much, tho. You're almost conflating it with a Macguffin, actually (altho a Macguffin typically doesn't actually do anything in the story; people just want it for its potential or value). The magic beans fill in the blank in the trailer opening "In a world where __", and that should make you want to visit that world. Sometimes it's one fairly simple thing (robots and people from the future can travel back in time to change history), but sometimes it's a whole crazy world of magic and fantasy creatures.

I think we should think of some examples of where the writer introduces too many magic beans or introduces them too late and then talk about them specifically. In the SW prequels, I think we can all agree that things like retroactively giving R2 rockets and introducing midi-chlorians (why is that not in the spell-checker?!) are examples of Lucas changing the rules of his characters/universe after they have been well established, and that causes many viewers to stop willingly suspending their disbelief.

For me—and I know this must seem weird—X-Files did the same thing when they actually confirmed the existence of real aliens. I was totally on board with weird earth-bound biology and so on, but Roswellian space aliens made me kind of groan. I kept watching, but I was in it for the creepy monster-of-the-week eps and not for the alien conspiracy arc.

Warning: I'm probably rewriting this post as you read it.

Zarban's House of Commentaries

Re: Magic Beans (LOST spoilers, I guess)

I want to point out that LOST is a special case, because we're not just talking about magic beans in terms of where it went wrong.

The problem with LOST specifically is that it was promoted, until the end, as a mystery. And the central question of the mystery was: what is this island and why does it make these things happen? The question of the island was the point of the show. LOST literally advertised its final episodes with a commercial that ended with a guy saying "I promise, I'll explain everything."

To not answer that question makes the show, therefore, pointless, and a violation of the promise the storytellers made the audience.

I liked the idea of a "Wonderland" movie initially, but thinking about it more I don't think it replaces the "magic beans" concept. It's more a description of the type of movie -- a "Wonderland" movie or a "Heist" movie or a "boy meets girl" movie. The magic bean is still a definable thing -- in a Wonderland movie, it's what creates the Wonderland.

In HARRY POTTER, the Wonderland is the wizarding world. But the magic bean is simply "magic is real." The Wonderland is the execution of that concept.

The thing is, that the Wonderland/magic beans still have rules. The magic in Harry Potter is never "explained," insofar as they don't make up any bullshit about midichlorians or whatever, but there are still rules, both to the magic and to the Wonderland.

In HP, one rule of the magic is that magic cannot be used to create food, drink, or living creatures.

But in a broader sense, a rule of the Wonderland is that this is a magical wonderland. I mean to say that if suddenly Hermione developed leet hacking skillz by plugging a conduit into her brain, and stopped using magic, the rules of the Wonderland have been violated because it's not a science-fiction Wonderland. And if it IS a science-fiction Wonderland, you had better be ready to explain how everything that's come before can be explained through that lens. Otherwise, as a storyteller, you're just babbling.

That's the issue that I see with what I know about LOST, that it kept changing the rules without ever explaining clearly what the rules were, why they were changing, or how they weren't really changing, they just weren't what you thought they were at first.

I think a major problem with the "midichlorian" debacle in the prequels was that it didn't actually explain anything. It didn't answer a question the audience was asking, as they had just accepted "the Force" at face value as part of their original suspension of disbelief. Changing the rules like that signaled the audience to start thinking "What you think you know is wrong," which quite honestly I'm on board with in a prequel story. It seems to me that the only reason to do a prequel is to tell us that it's not what we think it is. But he didn't leverage that, at all. He knocked us off-balance by telling us this spiritual Force was actually quantifiable and sciency...and then just kind of left that hanging out there. Never returned to it, never leveraged it, just said it for no real reason. Babbling.

Or, to make a more related-to-LOST point: Lucas teased us for years in interviews and such, that Obi-Wan's line "If you strike me down, I shall become more powerful than you can possibly imagine" was, like, the key to everything. That this was a major, important thing that we were going to understand much more deeply via the prequels. He said it was going to come into play in AOTC...and then it didn't. And then he said that it was the crux of ROTS...and then it wasn't. Yoda just has a throwaway line about "Oh, I've been chatting to Qui-Gon btw. Yeah apparently we can do that." The end. If you don't have the answers, don't go out of your way to put the questions in our heads.

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Re: Magic Beans (LOST spoilers, I guess)

DorkmanScott wrote:

[stuff]

I wish I had something more to say here than "Now I see what you mean, and I agree completely."

EDIT: Wait. I thought of something. Where was Qui-Gon's lazy ass at the beginning of New Hope? And at the end of Jedi? And did evil Darth Vader discover the secret of becoming a Force ghost as a Sith? Did he slice up Obi-Wan in New Hope and then sit meditating for several days before going "Oh crap! I know what he means now! Damn, I've got some work to do. Best not let the Emperor know I'm gonna practice some light-side post-death Force projection. Gotta keep all my options open."

Of course maybe it's not just a light-side thing. But you know the emperor would have been all over it if it had been an option for him. And it would have been hilarious if, at the end of Jedi, the Emperor gets tossed down the well shouting "If you strike me down, I shall become more powerful than you ever imagiiiiiiiiiiiiined!"

Last edited by Zarban (2010-05-27 17:44:00)

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Zarban's House of Commentaries

Re: Magic Beans (LOST spoilers, I guess)

As someone who has seen every episode of Lost, I'm not sure that it changed the rules as it went along.  It really didn't.  They were actually pretty consistent and if you rewatch older episodes, you'll see that they had plenty of plant and payoff.

The problem with Lost and specifically the finale, isn't that it changed the rules, its that it changed its focus too often.  Season 1, the island has a monster and a hatch.  Season two, it has/had a Dharma Initiative.  Season three, it had others.  By Now yes, they did establish Jacob in season 3 , and the "massive pocket of energy," in season 2.  But because the focus and emphasis changed so often, it was difficult at times as an audience to get a foothold.

If this was Flash Forward, whatever, audiences wouldn't have cared and it would have gotten canceled.  But because it had interesting characters that had a rich backstory, portrayed by solid actors, mixed with beautiful sets and cinematography and a brilliant score....we as the audience were sucked back in, again and again. 

I feel that the makers didn't betray me so much as they couldn't stick the landing.  had this season been a bit more focused, it could have been a masterpiece.  Sadly, now its going to be remembered not for the amazing 5 seasosns of tv it was, but as an unfocused bag of meh.  Its unfortunate because there is some truly GREAT tv in there.

Eddie Doty

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Re: Magic Beans (LOST spoilers, I guess)

As a non-viewer, I have no opinion, but I'm curious. Do you think that the producers of Lost actually made it up as they went and then read the Internet discussions and picked the best explanations from there?

Warning: I'm probably rewriting this post as you read it.

Zarban's House of Commentaries

Re: Magic Beans (LOST spoilers, I guess)

Ive talked to a few people close to production and what I've come to understand is this.

While the fans have always been about the mystery, the Producers were far more interested in the characters.  The final image of the show, Damon Lindelof has had planned since the Pilot. 

*SPOILERS*

He knew Jack was going to die in the end sacrificing himself so the others could be safe.  His journey was that of finding purpose and redemption.   He knew what the island could do.  He knew what effects it had on people, he knew about Jacob, Smokey, all of that, from the beginning.

What was more modular, was the answer to the question, "The island is a ______."  That interested them the least as storytellers.  I'm not unsympathetic to this view.  I grew up watching a lot of Hitchcock and he was of a similar mind.  In North by Northwest, you never find out what James Mason does that made him a bad guy, you just know he is.  In Notorius you never know what that black powder is, you just know its bad.  That's how they saw the island.

Now here I have to be careful.....through circumstances I found out a bit more than I should and Ill try to give a satisfying answer to this without going to specific.

At one point, around season 4-5 they had a very definitive answer as to what the island was.  They drop hints at this throughout season 5.  As they are breaking season 6's story, they realize that where they want to take these characters, and how they want to end their story, it doesn't really match up well with this explanation of the island that they had been using internally.

I cannot be much more specific, but Ill say this.  The explanation of the island was originally much more hard sci-fi.  In the last season though you realize that with what Jacob's mother tells them, coupled with the reveal of the flash sideways, that it is much more mystical/spiritual in nature.  This is where they wanted to go, and this is why they couldn't just come out and say, "The island is  ______."  They never revealed too much in seasons 1-5, because they wanted to give themselves the freedom to change as needed.

But think about it.  Massive pocket of energy.  Electromagnetic in nature.  Time altering properties.  The smoke monster makes almost mechanical sounds.  You can draw your own conclusions.

Last edited by Eddie (2010-05-27 18:21:26)

Eddie Doty

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