Re: Noah

Doctor Submarine wrote:

I saw this movie as the good version of the story of Abraham and Isaac on the mountain. Noah eventually decides that the love he has for his family doesn't outweigh the love he has for his god, and God says, "Yup, nailed it!" and there are rainbows and happiness and stuff.

Oh yeah, all that alcoholism and banished sons, all rainbows and joy over here.

ZangrethorDigital.ca

Re: Noah

BigDamnArtist wrote:
Doctor Submarine wrote:

I saw this movie as the good version of the story of Abraham and Isaac on the mountain. Noah eventually decides that the love he has for his family doesn't outweigh the love he has for his god, and God says, "Yup, nailed it!" and there are rainbows and happiness and stuff.

Oh yeah, all that alcoholism and banished sons, all rainbows and joy over here.

Correct me if I'm wrong, but isn't the last scene of the movie the family reuniting and Noah doing the ceremony with the snakeskin and God making a rainbow?

"The Doctor is Submarining through our brains." --Teague

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Re: Noah

avatar wrote:
Invid wrote:

Listening to the episode again, there's a couple things. First, Noah isn't a Christian story. It's a JEWISH story.

No, it's a Babylonian story that the Hebrews ripped off while they were in exile in the 6th century BC.

I'd argue that THIS version is a Jewish story, just like the 1998 Titanic movie is a James Cameron story. There's also a Muslim story of Noah, as they bothered to re-write it to fit their beliefs. The Christians just tossed the Jewish texts in their book and called it a day smile

(one scholar, talking about the Moses in the Koran, commented that he gives such long and boring speeches that most listeners probably chose to take their chances with the flood)

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Re: Noah

Babylonians ripped it from the Sumerians.

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Re: Noah

something something SURROGATES

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Re: Noah

ving rhames is noah in noah 2

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Re: Noah

Is Gilgamesh too weird to make into a movie(s)?

For context, in the last-ish part of the Epic of Gilgamesh, he meets a character that's all like "Oh hello, I gained my immortality by having the entire story of Noah's Ark happen to me verbatim. Anyway humans are terrible."

Last edited by paulou (2014-08-24 00:45:50)

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Re: Noah

Invid wrote:

Fun commentary....

When child sacrifice was finally abandoned, they did the best they could to clean most of it from the texts.

So about 32 OR 33 A.D.?

--
One Time @ Bland Camp...

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Re: Noah

There is a theory that just like circumcision was mandated to replace killing the first born male child, Jesus was sacrificed to replace replace circumcision AND animal sacrifices. God doesn't change what he needs, just the form it takes.

(it actually was a female wisdom goddess who demanded human sacrifice, and they got rid of her when they went to one god just before the Babylonian exile. Many, naturally, blamed tossing her out of the Temple for that disaster, so I'm sure there were some backsliders)

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Re: Noah

Invid wrote:

There is a theory that just like circumcision was mandated to replace killing the first born male child, Jesus was sacrificed to replace replace circumcision AND animal sacrifices. God doesn't change what he needs, just the form it takes.

(it actually was a female wisdom goddess who demanded human sacrifice, and they got rid of her when they went to one god just before the Babylonian exile. Many, naturally, blamed tossing her out of the Temple for that disaster, so I'm sure there were some backsliders)

Naturally, you need some sacrifice because all humans are stained with the sin of Adam, cursed from birth. Obviously someone's gotta pay 'cos someone ate some fruit somewhere in the past 'cos the talking snake enticed them.  lol

Last edited by avatar (2014-08-24 18:51:21)

not long to go now...

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Re: Noah

Doesn't the story end with Noah dying of liver disease?

Also, good notes on Lot. People gloss over the ending for that one too (Genesis 19):
35 And they made their father drink wine that night also: and the younger arose, and lay with him; and he perceived not when she lay down, nor when she arose.
36 Thus were both the daughters of Lot with child by their father.

As for messed up bible stories, my go-to is always Job. He loses everyone he loves and suffers but it's fine because he gets a new family and gets better later.

'Going ham' IS a thing. A dumb thing: http://www.cracked.com/blog/the-5-wors … istory_p2/

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Re: Noah

"H.A.M." is the worst song on that album by a long shot.

"The Doctor is Submarining through our brains." --Teague

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Re: Noah

Just saw this. It's like somebody took The Road, Lord of the Rings, 2012 and Waterworld and smashed them together into this bizarre bible film that amazingly saw the light of day. Strong performances, a compelling story and absolutely stunning too. I was really surprised by this.

Imagination will often carry us to worlds that never were. But without it we go nowhere. - Carl Sagan

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Re: Noah

Invid wrote:

There is a theory that just like circumcision was mandated to replace killing the first born male child, Jesus was sacrificed to replace replace circumcision AND animal sacrifices. God doesn't change what he needs, just the form it takes.

(it actually was a female wisdom goddess who demanded human sacrifice, and they got rid of her when they went to one god just before the Babylonian exile. Many, naturally, blamed tossing her out of the Temple for that disaster, so I'm sure there were some backsliders)

Actually, archeological evidence indicates that Israelite communities were more monotheistic than the surrounding Canaanite villages discovered. It was very interesting to read about that, and how ancient societies would regard child sacrifice. Especially in relation to the Binding of Isaac, or Akedah.

One aspect of the Flood story, regardless of origin, is just the fact that several societies have a Flood epic. It would have been interesting to me to explore the different facets from each story, Gilgamesh, there is a Hindu story, a Greek one, and several others (don't have the book in front of me, so I don't have the specific story names).

This is one movie that I may not agree with, but am glad it was made. I have often wondered if the biblical epic style movies, like Ten Commandments or Ben-Hur, could be made in the modern age,  and it is nice to see that it is possible.

God loves you!

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Re: Noah

I freely admit, I'm a fan of scholar Margaret Barker, and her theories about exactly what was practiced in the First Temple. It could be complete bullshit and is about as far from mainstream Biblical criticism as those who say Abraham and Moses actually existed, but it's a fun idea. I'm getting her new book for my birthday next month, which with luck will give more details on her theory that Christianity was an attempt to return to First Temple beliefs (she thinks what we call Pagan influences are actually from early Hebrew practices). Her "The Mother of the Lord" is a great read, and available as an ebook.

I write stories! With words!
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Re: Noah

Invid wrote:

I freely admit, I'm a fan of scholar Margaret Barker, and her theories about exactly what was practiced in the First Temple. It could be complete bullshit and is about as far from mainstream Biblical criticism as those who say Abraham and Moses actually existed, but it's a fun idea. I'm getting her new book for my birthday next month, which with luck will give more details on her theory that Christianity was an attempt to return to First Temple beliefs (she thinks what we call Pagan influences are actually from early Hebrew practices). Her "The Mother of the Lord" is a great read, and available as an ebook.

Thank you for the recommendation. I will have to look in to that big_smile

God loves you!

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Re: Noah

Trey wrote:
Well, diff'rent strokes for diff'rent folks and so on, because that's what I liked most about the movie - the ambiguity of it.
The usual Bible movie premise is "We already agree that whatever God wants is good so here's a story about somebody who did what God wanted and lived happily ever after."   That's why Bible movies are especially tedious - talk about no stakes!
But if a group of real humans - rather than fairy tale archetypes - actually lived through the events in most Bible stories, some of those real humans would surely say "Seriously, are we sure this is right?"  Noah is about humans trying to interpret the will of a god who clearly exists, but doesn't give much info about what He's up to.
So, me - I didn't think the movie needed to make it clear to us what God "wanted" - any more than God needed to make that clear to Noah.

I guess the essence of my contention is that I question the value of the tale, why did the director tell me this story?

I also guess that I actually don’t think the movie is ambiguous, I feel it is very clear from the mechanics of the narrative, and that is really the issue. The character of God as portrayed and the epilogue is at odds with each other. The movie tells us that we are to read God as an able and benign player, but the movie shows us a God that is either an idiot or a jerk. To me that is not ambiguity, that is inconsistency. I feel if there’s any ambiguity it lies with Aronofsky himself. The point of ambiguity in storytelling is to make us ask questions, but when that question becomes about the quality of the carpentry I feel that is a problem.

“Noah is about humans trying to interpret the will of a god who clearly exists, but doesn't give much info about what He's up to.”

Isn’t that just the narrative, and not what the movie is about? I feel the movie is about how humans have ruined the earth because we take more than we need and that we should take only what we need, as told in the first scene of the movie. Everything that follows explores that theme. And then the second movie happens, where the theme switches to Noah’s relationship to God.

It feels like Aronofsky was so excited by his framing of Noah as an environmentalist that all his attention went into the first part of the movie, but because of the source material he was stuck with the obligation to also tell the second part, which I’m not sure he entirely knew what to do with.

A bit more on the God device:

How is the God device in this movie in any way compelling? It amounts to nothing but a series of needless guesswork. It begs the question why don’t you just tell him? It’s the plot of a badly written romantic comedy. We are given no reason for God not to tell Noah. Now, had the movie not been clear about the existence of God it would have made things much more interesting. Then the focus turns to Noah and his judgement and whether he is right, has gone insane or whatnot. Having everything rely on Noah would make a huge difference, in fact, all the difference. Taking the story from God’s hands into human hands. The story would have had poignancy. In God’s hands the story is moot, what will happen is God’s will. Now the only thing the movie is saying is that we should listen to God, cause God.

The existence of God is an answer, that’s the whole point of God, God is the answer. From a nonbelievers point of view there is nothing to take away from the second half of the movie. From a believer’s point of view it is a foregone conclusion, cause God. The second part of the movie won’t change anyone’s mind on anything, neither believer nor atheist. It is a trifle. The device of God in the movie amounts to nothing.

Had a believer made this movie there wouldn’t be an issue, what confounds me is that an atheist did.

Maybe it just comes down to me having a hard time identifying with someone suffering from stockholm syndrome.

I probably should watch the movie again, but I’m feeling less and less inclined to. Well, I’ll probably watch it with the commentary again though wink

Still, I love the directorial hand on this movie, just not the construct.

The Low Frequenter

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Re: Noah

Snowflake wrote:

How is the God device in this movie in any way compelling? It amounts to nothing but a series of needless guesswork. It begs the question why don’t you just tell him? It’s the plot of a badly written romantic comedy. We are given no reason for God not to tell Noah. Now, had the movie not been clear about the existence of God it would have made things much more interesting. Then the focus turns to Noah and his judgement and whether he is right, has gone insane or whatnot. Having everything rely on Noah would make a huge difference, in fact, all the difference. Taking the story from God’s hands into human hands. The story would have had poignancy. In God’s hands the story is moot, what will happen is God’s will. Now the only thing the movie is saying is that we should listen to God, cause God.

See, I find this version way less interesting. Uncertainty is what makes the movie so compelling, but not the binary uncertainty that you're suggesting. Noah keeps trying to figure out exactly WHY God wants what He wants, when the whole point was for Noah to come to a conclusion about humanity for himself.

Boiling it down to "Is God real or is Noah crazy?" just isn't as dramatic as what we got. And your last sentence just isn't correct, because the whole climax hinges on Noah NOT listening to God.

"The Doctor is Submarining through our brains." --Teague

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Re: Noah

Snowflake wrote:

Had a believer made this movie there wouldn’t be an issue, what confounds me is that an atheist did.

Not every atheist seeks to turn religious fables into anti-god sermons. He just treated it as he would a film about greek mythology, where the gods are real and everyone knows it.

I do think, though, the film probably could have been improved if they brought in Bill Cosby to help with the script.

"Noah, I want you to build an Ark!"
"Right... What's an ark?"

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Re: Noah

Invid wrote:
Snowflake wrote:

Had a believer made this movie there wouldn’t be an issue, what confounds me is that an atheist did.

Not every atheist seeks to turn religious fables into anti-god sermons. He just treated it as he would a film about greek mythology, where the gods are real and everyone knows it.

I do think, though, the film probably could have been improved if they brought in Bill Cosby to help with the script.

"Noah, I want you to build an Ark!"
"Right... What's an ark?"

Heck, even "Evan Almighty" handled the premise with a fair amount of success.

"Now, if you'll excuse me, I have an ark to go build. Busy, busy, busy..."

God loves you!

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Re: Noah

Great episode.

I loved the movie but it was really divisive here when it came out. People either loved it or loathed it with passion. The more religious completely trashed the movie.

Oh.. and I fixed the tagline for the movie!

http://ashdigital.com/blog/wp-content/uploads/2014/04/noah-fixedPoster.jpg

---------------------------------------------
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Re: Noah

Doctor Submarine wrote:
See, I find this version way less interesting. Uncertainty is what makes the movie so compelling, but not the binary uncertainty that you're suggesting. Noah keeps trying to figure out exactly WHY God wants what He wants, when the whole point was for Noah to come to a conclusion about humanity for himself.
Boiling it down to "Is God real or is Noah crazy?" just isn't as dramatic as what we got. And your last sentence just isn't correct, because the whole climax hinges on Noah NOT listening to God.

Noah doesn’t know what God meant because God never told him, so he cannot NOT listen to what he’s never been told. Noah doubts himself, an unnecessary doubt as long as God exists. Without God it would have been interesting and relatable. In the end he came to a conclusion and listened to himself, but that choice is made moot by the director virtually telling us through Watson’s character that this was God’s point, or if you will, plan, all the time. After all Noah was chosen by God to build the ark and start anew. I imagine God knew what he was doing as it is unreasonable to expect anyone to read this God as anyone else than the God we are told is almighty and all-knowing. So, in the end, no real stakes.

Noah had it right, then unneccessarily has it wrong, to again have it right, but unneccessarily thinking he is wrong, then we are unneccessarily told he was right. It’s farcical and not fulfilling. The God character has no function, it only confuses. The movie would hold the same message without God, only we would have to infer it, which would be way more fulfilling. And it would be way more interesting because we would be left with an ambiguous ending, in fact, ambiguity all the way through, not like it is now, boiled down as you put it, and clear cut.

The story in the Bible is clear, in fact down to the cubit, and not confusing. Aronofsky manufactures forced drama to justify a movie and unnecessary clouds the story, only to end up in the same place not even making commentary through the change of the character.

The only thing ambiguous in the narrative of the movie is whether Noah figures out what God wants or not, because God won’t tell him. Personally I couldn’t care less about what God wants if he can’t be arsed to just say it, let alone the purported benign nature of an unseen sadist. I don’t think Aronofsky does either, I think he only cares about the environmentalist issue, so that feels to me like something went wrong in the writing.

But, as I said, I’m easily confused. I may have missed something, but this just didn’t feel right or genuine to me.

Invid wrote:
Not every atheist seeks to turn religious fables into anti-god sermons. He just treated it as he would a film about greek mythology, where the gods are real and everyone knows it.

And surprisingly changed God from how he was portrayed in the actual story, and made a pro-god sermon of it. At least it’s unorthodox.

Also, there is a huge difference between the gods in greek mythology and God, those are not comparable, the ramifications are entirely different. The greek gods are not almighty and all-knowing and perfect, they are just for all intents and purposes very powerful creatures, but expressly fallible and worthy of a tale.

The God character is why Bible stories as narrative are boring, auto deus ex machina. They work as fable and parable, not as narrative stories.

I realise I seem over zealous about this, but I’m a bit obsessive in general and I like discussion.

Most things would be improved by Bill Cosby.

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Last edited by Snowflake (2014-08-27 19:28:06)

The Low Frequenter

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Re: Noah

Snowflake wrote:

Also, there is a huge difference between the gods in greek mythology and God, those are not comparable, the ramifications are entirely different. The greek gods are not almighty and all-knowing and perfect, they are just for all intents and purposes very powerful creatures, but expressly fallible and worthy of a tale.

Um, have you READ the Torah? If YHVH was all knowing, he wouldn't have had to apologize for doing the flood thing. Or have to be talked out of killing every Hebrew once a week by Moses as they wandered the desert. Or, hell, he would have known that if you don't give your gardeners the ability to know right from wrong, they won't know it is wrong to disobey you and eat from that tree.

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Re: Noah

No, I haven't read the Torah, that sounds fascinating. I only know the christian side of things, and then barely. I'm not unwilling to be informed. Though I don't think it is unreasonable to read the movie from that angle. I feel it would be rather unreasonable, in fact a huge miscalculation, to expect people to read the movie with anything other than a cursory knowledge of the material. But I guess that could also be argued.

The Low Frequenter

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Re: Noah

Invid wrote:

have you READ the Torah?

Snowflake wrote:

No, I haven't read the Torah, that sounds fascinating.

I would highly recommend this wink

So honor the valiant who die 'neath your sword
But pity the warrior who slays all his foes...

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