Re: Star Wars (Not-so-special edition.)

fardawg wrote:

This is more a comment on the Episode 1-3 commentaries, but the idea of a "Chosen One" goes back to the early drafts of Star Wars. There was a prophecy quoted at the beginning about the "Son of the Suns". Lucas just went back to that idea for the prequels.
I like the idea that by the time of ANH Yoda and Ben figure they should keep the prophecy from Luke because that last one didn't go so well wink

As this link will show you! http://shortpacked.com/comic/book-1-bri … olor/a-83/

I write stories! With words!
http://www.asstr.org/~Invid_Fan/

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Re: Star Wars (Not-so-special edition.)

fardawg wrote:

I have read some of Secret History. I don't see it "laying to rest" anything more than that Vader wasn't Luke's father the whole time and that Darth Vader = Dark Father was BS. I have no problem with the idea that Lucas didn't want anyone to know that he was toying with the idea.
Notice I said, "THOUGHT that Vader MIGHT be Luke's father by the time they shot ANH." I don't know that he had decided that it was the case by then.

Then you should read all of the book. There's not a shred of evidence in any of the drafts that Vader was Luke's father.  And not only is there a lack of evidence -  to toy with something indicates using it - but everything about the development of Star Wars and the early writing of Empire shows that he hadn't even considered it, specifically the continued presence of Luke's father alongside Vader and the negligible role that Vader plays up until the start of ESB.

It's tantamount to hero-worship to argue that he had not only conceived the idea but was actively keeping it secret. A fact which makes even less sense when you consider that he was open about every other idea, inkling, and vague imagining during this period.

The relevation is the same as when Leia as Luke's sister. But no-one ever thinks Lucas didn't make that one up on the spot for ROTJ. Why? Because Lucas has spent the last decade going around trying to rewrite the story of Star Wars and how it's all about Anakin - and hasn't done the same for Luke and Leia claiming they were always siblings.

Last edited by redxavier (2010-07-09 11:52:37)

Imagination will often carry us to worlds that never were. But without it we go nowhere. - Carl Sagan

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Re: Star Wars (Not-so-special edition.)

"There's not a shred of evidence in any of the drafts that Vader was Luke's father."

  Never said there was. (Though the fact that he combined aspects of the redeemed Vader figure with the mostly machine father figure could be evidence that he was at least toying with the idea of making Vader the father. He was reading Campbell at the time and could have taken the idea of the Atonement With the Father step to heart).
  What I said was that he COULD have had the notion by the time ANH started filming. And if he did have it by then I see no problem with his keeping it a secret till the scene where it is revealed. I wouldn't want to give that away. He seems to have kept if from everyone until he told Mark. The shooting script had the alternate line.  Are you saying that he had the idea just before the rolled film?

"It's tantamount to hero-worship to argue that he had not only conceived the idea but was actively keeping it secret."

  Hero worship? I specifically said that I wasn't an apologist and didn't believe his version of the story. He clearly makes shit up. Some "hero-worship"!

"But no-one ever thinks Lucas didn't make that one up on the spot for ROTJ"

  By "make it up on the spot" I assume you mean once he started writing the script and knew he wasn't making another sequel. The June 12, 1981 Revised Rough Draft has Leia as his sister. He also cut out the more passionate kiss in Empire. Which he said was because he decided then that she would be the sister.

"Why? Because Lucas has spent the last decade going around trying to rewrite the story of Star Wars..."

  Or maybe because he isn't as big a liar as you (and me) think...Nah!

  Seriously though, why even bring Leia up? It doesn't help your case in the least.

Last edited by fardawg (2010-07-11 05:00:25)

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Re: Star Wars (Not-so-special edition.)

Here is a outline of the father and Vader characters in the scripts. Just for the heck of it.

Rough Draft- Vader (aka Valorum) turns good at the end. The father is alive, mostly machine and sacrifices his life.

Revised First- same. Vader called Dodana

Second Draft- Father is alive at the end. Vader stays evil and supposedly dies.

Third Draft- The father is dead but Luke remembers him. Vader stays evil and lives

Fourth Draft- The father is dead and Luke doesn't really remember him much. Vader stays evil and lives.

Revised Fourth- Same as film.

It's clear that as late as the Third Draft (most likely 4th too) The father and Vader are separate. In the 3rd he decides to keeps Vader alive and by the revised 4th the father died before Luke could know him. It's not clear from what I saw when Lucas decided that Vader would be part machine.

Last edited by fardawg (2010-07-11 06:08:05)

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Re: Star Wars (Not-so-special edition.)

Fardawg, I would take you more seriously, or at least pretend to, if you didn't post two, three, four, and even five posts in a row. Edit your earlier post, or better yet, make sure you've fully thought through what you want to say before you hit 'submit.'

Please.

Posted from my iPad
http://trek.fm

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Re: Star Wars (Not-so-special edition.)

"Fardawg, I would take you more seriously, or at least pretend to, if you didn't post two, three, four, and even five posts in a row."

That's OK. I don't pretend to take you seriously.

I post more than one if they are long and have (in my opinion) different topics.  If I am replying to someones post directly I don't feel like adding something that isn't directed at them.

"Please."

No. wink

I combined the ones that did belong (IMHO) with the ones above it. I think I got in the habit posting on Youtube.

Last edited by fardawg (2010-07-11 06:29:33)

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Re: Star Wars (Not-so-special edition.)

I'm with Fardawg that Lucas probably absorbed Campbell and came to the conclusion in the last drafts that Vader perhaps ought to be Luke's father but left it open. Without it, Star Wars actually has rather weak form: the mentor tells the hero that the bad man killed his dad, and the hero sees the bad man kill his mentor, but the hero never gets to confront the bad man face-to-face.

Warning: I'm probably rewriting this post as you read it.

Zarban's House of Commentaries

Re: Star Wars (Not-so-special edition.)

He'sa let Vader finish, but the Death Star was the most bad thing of all time.



What? Too much of a stretch, or are we not doing that one anymore?

Teague Chrystie

I have a tendency to fix your typos.

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Re: Star Wars (Not-so-special edition.)

While I'm at it, Teague asked what's wrong with Star Wars, so....

Cut the jawas to the bare minimum, and bring Luke in 4 minutes earlier.

Put Luke's intro to the Force before the destruction of Alderaan, then imply that hours have passed when Luke gets the hang of it and Obi-Wan goes weak.

Spice up Obi-Wan's death scene with a little Force (but no jumping). Then Obi-Wan should be sliced in two and react before disappearing. Luke briefly goes after Vader, who blocks his blaster shots effortlessly then closes a blast door between them.

Then Luke gets a chance to show that he's a great pilot. He jumps in a T-16 or shuttle to escape and outmaneuvers 2 TIE fighters to crash into each other while Han and Leia shoot some from ball turrets (giving her more to do).

The intro of the battle briefing is too abrupt. When they first arrive and Leia says to get the Death Star plans from R2, Luke and Han should veer off and encounter Biggs and Wedge. Luke introduces them, and they introduce the X-Wing ("Same control setup as the T-16!") And Wedge should be black, another pilot should be a woman, and another should be an alien.

During the battle, Leia needs to order each attack run instead of just looking worried. At the climax, she should say that time is running out and ask who is in position for another run. Only Luke.

3P0 has been monitoring Imperial transmissions and announces that Vader is the one in the new-style TIE fighter. Likewise, Vader should sense "This one is using the Force.... Obi-Wan's apprentice!"

In the medal ceremony, Wedge and the others should already have medals. Chewie has to kneel, providing the final moment of levity instead of all the goofy smiling.

Warning: I'm probably rewriting this post as you read it.

Zarban's House of Commentaries

Re: Star Wars (Not-so-special edition.)

A few notes on stormtrooper armor.

The design in my opinion is to imitate the appearance of a skeleton. Following fantasy motifs, Darth Vader is the dark wizard and the stormtroopers are his army of undead. Lucas based much of Star Wars on the old cliffhanger serials and B movies of his day. Imagine the skeleton armies in Sinbad. If you look at the helmet and the plating, the face resembles a death's head and the plating the bones and joints. The Empire is very much based on the Nazis. SS officers would have death's heads on their caps and decorating other parts of their uniforms and equipment.

I played the Star Wars role-playing game and according to the rules stormtrooper armor does supply some protection. Strength is the statistic used to defend against damage. It is measured in a number of dice, the average person being 2D, the hero 3D. Stormtrooper armor provides 1 additional die. A protective vest adds only 1 pip, so by comparison and average of 2D+1 compared to 3D.

Stormtroopers are accurate with rifles in the game, having around a 5D skill rating, again the average untrained person being 2D.

However, in the movies stormtroopers are just an obstacle or foil and pose no great threat for the heros.

Wow. That was a lot of nerd just then.

Where Geek Meets Goth

Re: Star Wars (Not-so-special edition.)

Really interesting point about resembling a skeleton, though.

Teague Chrystie

I have a tendency to fix your typos.

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Re: Star Wars (Not-so-special edition.)

I dont know if anyone has seen this but i just found a cool VFX making of star wars

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zjqk2Nwl … re=related

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Re: Star Wars (Not-so-special edition.)

Thanks for the link, that was interesting. Do you know when that doco was made?

http://i54.tinypic.com/k9hsuo.jpg

This rings a bell but i can't remember, does anyone know what movie this is from? Just curious.

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Re: Star Wars (Not-so-special edition.)

beldar wrote:

Thanks for the link, that was interesting. Do you know when that doco was made?


sorry I just kinda stumbled upon it

Maybe Trey would know

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Re: Star Wars (Not-so-special edition.)

That screenshot's from a movie i've seen i just can't remember right now. From the look of John Dykstra and the other movies mentioned i'll say 1984.

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Re: Star Wars (Not-so-special edition.)

This wasn't discussed in the commentary (which I enjoyed a lot, and it didn't need to be discussed) but I have to ask.

Are stormtroopers clones? I've heard mixed answers to this. When I saw the prequels, I assumed they were, "Oh, huh, so the stormtroopers are clones."

But then I heard they weren't.

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Re: Star Wars (Not-so-special edition.)

They have different voices in the original trilogy.  *shrug*

Teague Chrystie

I have a tendency to fix your typos.

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Re: Star Wars (Not-so-special edition.)

It was never a common assumption that the stormtroopers were clones, back in the day.   Always seemed to me, and still does, that they're just a random assortment of guys who signed up to be troops for the Empire, because the Empire is the reigning goverment after all, so that's the army you sign up for.   

SW books like Allegiance certainly portray them as different people as well, if that counts.

What stormtroopers REALLY are is a cost-effective way to kill the same stuntmen over and over and get away with it, but that's probably not what you were asking.  smile

Re: Star Wars (Not-so-special edition.)

As I can attest to from my portrayal of Stormtroopers 1-47 in Return of Pink Five

Eddie Doty

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Re: Star Wars (Not-so-special edition.)

*scooby-doo laugh*

Teague Chrystie

I have a tendency to fix your typos.

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Re: Star Wars (Not-so-special edition.)

The official Word (as of 2011 or last I heard) was that the stormtroopers at the time of the OT were a mixture of clones and recruits. But this may change depending on what side of the bed Lucas wakes up on tomorrow.

I don't think any are clones and don't like the idea. It's just not very effective on a dramatic level. The terror of the stormtroopers is that they are faceless fanatics who have given up their identity (or had it taken from them) in service to a sorceror Emperor. That says something about the Empire. Not just the emperor himself but about the regime. There's the obvious echo with our own history, evil doesn't just come from the top but manifests in the lowest soldier - all due to environment that encourages such behaviour. When our heroes take up the fight, they're not fighting just the emperor, they're fighting the regime and what it does to people, what it makes or forces them to be. Guys like Tarkin who thrive on power.

If they're just 'built that way' and all share the same features, it reduces them to the level of robots. The evil becomes limited to just the man with the controls, which actually lessens the overall impact he has on the world. After all, the villain hasn't infected anyone with his evil, he hasn't manipulate others to follow him, he isn't drawing the worst out of others for his own gain - he's just punching commands into a program and it gets done.

Imagination will often carry us to worlds that never were. But without it we go nowhere. - Carl Sagan

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Re: Star Wars (Not-so-special edition.)

That's reading way too much into stormtroopers. There is no terror from them, never has been, apart from the usual when dealing with enemy soldiers. I'm sure many were drafted, and not fanatics (only in an all volunteer army, or at least service, can you ascribe any political identity to them). Replace them with a generic WW I soldier in a gas mask from any side and you'd have the same effect.

What the prequels did was ruin the Clone War. I mean, here was a mythical historic struggle of the previous generation that the Republic won, but probably at great cost. I think we all assumed they were FIGHTING the clones, or maybe the fight was over cloning (similar to iirc the wars in the DUNE books that led to the ban on computers). To reduce it to "our clones fighting their robots" makes it rather meaningless...

I write stories! With words!
http://www.asstr.org/~Invid_Fan/

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Re: Star Wars (Not-so-special edition.)

Invid wrote:

That's reading way too much into stormtroopers. ... Replace them with a generic WW I soldier in a gas mask from any side and you'd have the same effect.

What the prequels did was ruin the Clone War. ... To reduce it to "our clones fighting their robots" makes it rather meaningless...

Totally agree. Stormtroopers aren't evil; they're just soldiers doing a job. And if the Clone Wars were about "our clones fighting their robots," then it would have been called the Robots Wars. And then Craig Charles would have hosted it, and it would still have been kind of crap.

Warning: I'm probably rewriting this post as you read it.

Zarban's House of Commentaries

Re: Star Wars (Not-so-special edition.)

In the OT they're space nazis.

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Re: Star Wars (Not-so-special edition.)

The Empire's high command in the OT are the space-Nazis, but the stormtroopers are more the equivalent of the regular German army.   The German Army did most of the fighting and dying in WWII, but they weren't necessarily Nazis.   The Nazis were busy running the concentration camps, etc, and they were just as ruthless when dealing with any army regular who didn't do as ordered.

The average German army soldier signed up for the same variety of reasons that people enlist in the military to this day, unfortunately for them their government went batshit and sent them out to serve its own demented ends.

I think that's all the SW stormtroopers are, just ordinary guys doing what their commanding officers tell them.   What are their choices, really?   Shoot that princess, or refuse and get tortured to death by Vader?  Tough call.   

The faceless uniforms also make it easier to say "yay!" when our heroes mow them down by the dozens.  smile

Again, the novel Allegiance touches on this, it's about a squad of troopers who go rogue when they realize they're working for the "bad guys". 

And no, I'm not referencing Allegiance because it's the novel where Pink Five makes a cameo appearance, really I'm not.  Really.  Not.  Really.