Topic: Submission 001 - RED STATE

If you weren't there for the recording today, we almost got off onto a rant about Red State during the Intermission about the movies we saw this holiday season. I made us hold off, so we could do that just as a separate rant to post on the forum. We called it a "sub-mission."

Turns out, hey, it's a thirty minute hate-fuck of Kevin Smith's latest film, Red State, as well as some dis-illusionment about Smith as well. It's spoilery as all hell, but only gets there a little while in, and there's good fair warning before it happens. So.

Anyway, I give you a freebie, under-the-radar episode of The Intermission, more or less:

Down in Front: Submission - RED STATE.

Teague Chrystie

I have a tendency to fix your typos.

Thumbs up Thumbs down

Re: Submission 001 - RED STATE

I sort of liked Red State, I guess. I think Smith has become a massive douche, though. I don't even listen to his Smodcasts any more.

Thumbs up Thumbs down

Re: Submission 001 - RED STATE

Submission?

http://img525.imageshack.us/img525/6694/fedor.gif

Re: Submission 001 - RED STATE

*sigh* There was a time when Fedor COULD have armbarred God.  Sadly, those days have passed.

But yeah, I just re-listened to this, and WOW I hated that movie.

Eddie Doty

Thumbs up Thumbs down

Re: Submission 001 - RED STATE

It was awesome, Eddie.  This was one of my favorite rants in the show's history.

Thumbs up Thumbs down

Re: Submission 001 - RED STATE

See, this is why I get annoyed when I have to work the weekends.

See what I've worked on recently here:
http://www.imdb.com/name/nm2869151/
And ways to get in touch with me at:
http://www.google.com/profiles/SethBrower

Re: Submission 001 - RED STATE

Did you like it Seth?

Eddie Doty

Thumbs up Thumbs down

Re: Submission 001 - RED STATE

Eddie wrote:

*sigh* There was a time when Fedor COULD have armbarred God.  Sadly, those days have passed.

I know. It kills me inside.

sad_tennant

Re: Submission 001 - RED STATE

Eddie wrote:

Did you like it Seth?

To be completely honest, I saw the initial trailers and talk about Red State, but never got around to seeing it. Nothing about it really jumped out at me and said ... go see this, and I'm sure I had things to do.

But I did love the conversation that was started, and loved the discussion of Kevin Smith's odd track record of work.

See what I've worked on recently here:
http://www.imdb.com/name/nm2869151/
And ways to get in touch with me at:
http://www.google.com/profiles/SethBrower

Re: Submission 001 - RED STATE

So, I've not had the opportunity to officially weigh in here. I know it's a lot to ask for someone to listen to me talk Red State and Kevin Smith for 80+ minutes, especially when it's just me and when they didn't like the movie, so I'll summarize my thoughts here.

I think Clerks, Chasing Amy and Dogma are Kevin Smith's best films (I really like what Teague said about the Alyssa character in Chasing Amy. I'd never thought about it that way before). The rest of them contain bits and pieces that I love, but on the whole I can either take or leave. I also tend to be something of a Mallrats defender. For what it is, I think it succeeds more than fails and deserves more credit for being lots of fun, especially given the circumstances surrounding it at the time it was made.

Jay & Silent Bob Strike Back is a mixed bag for me. Smith went through seven (SEVEN!) drafts of the script, and 75% of it is cannibalized from his Chasing Dogma graphic novel (which of course follows Jay & Silent Bob from leaving Holden at the diner "to catch a bus to Chi-Town", to arriving at the Abortion Clinic parking lot in time to save Bethany, and the adventures between those two events. For me, the most rewarding, creative and entertaining elements of the film involves the new material with the diamond thieves. It's also surprisingly visually rich, in my opinion. Everything else with the monkey, Marshall Willenholly and the studio backlot shenanigans either just go for the really cheap, easy and obvious jokes or are good for a chuckle once and don't have much replay value.

Although it should have never been a project for network TV, let alone ABC, I think the Clerks cartoon was pretty damn funny most of the time, especially the last episode where we stay inside the store while a wealth of adventure and insanity happens outside, off screen and is only referenced or implied.

Though it's full of genuine sincerity and contains some solid, dramatic moments and performances (particularly from Ben Affleck and George Carlin), Jersey Girl felt really pedestrian and pre-fabricated to me, if that makes any sense. Because of that, a lot of it went in one ear and out the other. Liv Tyler's character was originally written for Eliza Dushku and the only reason she wasn't cast was because she and Affleck differ in height immensely. My feeling is, that's not a good enough reason to recast. It could have easily been worked out or written into the script (have you seen her with Rick Fox? He could put her in his pocket and still have room for spare change!). Also, I think Dushku shares that Boston spitfire-type personality with Ben that could have made for some crackling chemistry. Tyler (who's really good in The Strangers, BTW) is just too meek and....submissive(?) to pull off the role. I also think the scene where she decides to throw Affleck (whom she barely knows at this point) a free fuck because he's not had sex in a long time is wildly immature, unrealistic and quite frankly, not a very high opinion of Women.

For the most part, I really like Clerks 2, but many times throughout the film, Smith goes out of his way to betray his source material, as if he doesn't really want to make a sequel to Clerks, which makes me ask, "then why the hell even bother?". If you check out the DVD, there are a number of legitimately good deleted scenes that Smith admits to removing because it was too much like Clerks, which seems like a really misguided mindset to have with a film like this, as far as I'm concerned. It's already unlike Clerks in that it's in over-saturated HD color (those purple and yellow Mooby's shirts burn my retinas!) and it has a cartoon-ish score by James Venable that feels more at home in J&SBSB, which he also scored.

My biggest issue with the film is the "Donkey Show" scene. Part of why the "Guy in the Bathroom" scene works so well is because it's quick, sudden and you never actually see the act go down. Here, the scene in question goes on way too long, Kevin Smith thinks it's funnier than it actually is and Dave Klein shoots it in this really harsh, distracting blue/purple lighting. The first film had much to say about a lot of topics throughout its running time, including relationships, societal behavior, transitions into adulthood and what it means to serve the public. The second film doesn't really have anything actually on its mind (thanks to Kevin cutting it all out in favor of keeping all the quick jokes and references to now-dated popular culture), until the scene in the jail cell at the end. Only then does it really get to some kind of worthwhile point. Thankfully, it's a well-made and emotionally resonant point. Also, the way the very end ties back to the first film is truly masterful, in my opinion. I'll admit, I choked up.

Zack & Miri Make A Porno was charming and sweet, but I had two fundamental issues with it: 1. I didn't buy for one second that the main characters would live together for that long and be so close, but never hook up, even by some drunken accident. 2. It felt too much like an Apatow picture. As such, I've yet to revisit the film. I also hated, hated, HATED the two stoner kids in the beginning. Kevin Smith seems to think that anyone and everyone who smokes pot dresses, talks and acts like Jay. Furthermore, he thought they were so great, they somehow show up again in the last act! I also don't like when Smith makes up words he thinks are hilarious. Seriously, "Cunt Nugget"? REALLY? Are you even TRYING anymore?!

I've not seen Cop Out. I'm afraid I won't like it. Also, Bruce Willis is apparently a giant Diva. That makes me a sad Panda.

I really enjoyed Red State. I thought it was intense, thought-provoking and surprisingly mature. I agree with Teague that Smith shouldn't have pulled his punches in the last act and the "trumpet" has to be earned first and foremost. I'll take it a step further and submit that with a careful redraft, he could have done both endings. They just needed some reworking in order to successfully compliment and inform on one another.

I agree with Eddie that the opening scenes with the kids is obnoxious and out of touch with real characters. I actually kind of hated those kids. John Goodman was the in here. The first act might have played much better if we opened on the scene in the trailer and then found some way to introduce Goodman's character and work our way up to the sermon with Michael Parks. In the discussion, Eddie started to talk about Melissa Leo and her character in the film, but got interrupted. I'm curious to hear the rest of that rant, if Eddie has a minute or two to spare on the subject. smile

I think Red State is a step in the right direction for Smith, but being that he dropped out of film school (because he didn't want to learn about film making, unless it was through doing), we unfortunately had to watch him go through 20 years of film school to finally arrive at this point, which would be fine, except now that it looks like he knows what he's doing, he's decided to quit. That being said, though I have no interest or investment in the subject matter and material, I'm really looking forward to Hit Somebody.

I'm glad someone else shares my thoughts on the whole Sundance thing. After it happened, Smith couldn't understand why no one was talking about the film itself, and I remember thinking, "Because you got up there, showed your ass and made it all about you!". Being a regular listener of his online radio network (and having also gotten a shout out for some of my tweets), I will say that Kevin Smith is still a very funny and entertaining storyteller. I just wish he'd at least keep writing, and I worry that his new distribution company is only going to support a certain kind of movie. I hope he uses this new venture to its fullest potential in helping truly original and creative voices be heard.

Thumbs up Thumbs down

Re: Submission 001 - RED STATE

My frustration with the Melissa Leo character is that Melissa Leo is awesome and her character was practically non essential after the internet lure.  One thing I wish I could have gone into more is that almost all of the characters felt like caricatures and at times were interchangeable.  Melissa Leo is awesome.  I've been saying it for a while, and she was utterly wasted on a character that did one thing.

In fact, many of the characters do just one thing, and in the process I end up not caring.

Eddie Doty

Thumbs up Thumbs down

Re: Submission 001 - RED STATE

johnpavlich wrote:

I've not seen Cop Out. I'm afraid I won't like it.

It is impossible to be sober and like COP OUT at the same time. Which is particularly infuriating because the spec script it mangled is one of the funniest I've ever read.

johnpavlich wrote:

Also, Bruce Willis is apparently a giant Diva. That makes me a sad Panda.

If you're basing the "diva" thing solely on things you heard about his behavior on COP OUT, you should watch "Too Fat For Forty." In which Smith gleefully tells you his story of how, via a dedicated campaign of complete unprofessionalism, he taught Bruce Willis to hate him.

I watched both the film and TFF40 in the same week and I kind of hated him after, too.

Thumbs up Thumbs down

Re: Submission 001 - RED STATE

Dorkman wrote:
johnpavlich wrote:

I've not seen Cop Out. I'm afraid I won't like it.

It is impossible to be sober and like COP OUT at the same time. Which is particularly infuriating because the spec script it mangled is one of the funniest I've ever read.

johnpavlich wrote:

Also, Bruce Willis is apparently a giant Diva. That makes me a sad Panda.

If you're basing the "diva" thing solely on things you heard about his behavior on COP OUT, you should watch "Too Fat For Forty." In which Smith gleefully tells you his story of how, via a dedicated campaign of complete unprofessionalism, he taught Bruce Willis to hate him.

I watched both the film and TFF40 in the same week and I kind of hated him after, too.

I've also seen TFF40. I was disappointed with it. These Kevin Smith Q&A DVDs have gone down in quality of content each time for me. I agree Kevin wasn't very professional, but I also feel Willis was being something of a bully, mostly because he could. I hate bullies. It's surprising that Smith as a filmmaker who's been in the business for 20 years doesn't know lenses, but I don't think he should be penalized for it. He and Dave Klein obviously have a short hand way of communicating. As such, Smith doesn't need to know his lenses. He only needs the ability to properly communicate to Dave, in his own unique way, how he wants the picture to look.

Even before that, according to Smith, Willis wouldn't take direction. He kept ignoring Smith's requests, which is going to keep everyone there longer and hold up the shoot. It's as if he feels he knows better because he's been acting for so many years. That may very well be true, but answer me this: If he knows so damn much, how come nobody has talked about Bruce's performance in any of his films in the past handful of years? Personally, I think it's because Willis stopped trying. He stopped caring and just does whatever the hell he wants and fuck everybody else. Well, there's no I in "Team", Bruce.

If you go further back, to the Threevening with Kevin Smith DVD, one of the few worthwhile segments involves Kevin's experiences working for Len Wiseman and with Bruce Willis on Live Free or Die Hard. It's great that Willis threw his weight around to support Smith's rewrite of his own scene, but even when Smith is singing his praises, you'll notice he still comes across as a selfish ass. "BWT"? "Bruce Willis Time"? Are you fucking kidding me?! In that very scene, Len went to great expense to get a specific gamer's chair, so that he could introduce Kevin's character in a special way. But no! Bruce Willis stops everything and wants to make it all about him (McClane). "Why have John McClane walk over to him? He should have to come to me." Why? Oh, I don't know, Bruce. Maybe because the entire country's safety and security is at stake and John maybe gives enough of a shit about millions of lives that aren't his own to walks a few extra paces across a fucking room to ask for someone's help IN THEIR OWN FUCKING HOUSE? HOW ABOUT THAT?

Shit, no wonder Kevin described Wiseman as being such a tired, disheveled mess by the end. I would be too if I wasn't allowed to do my job and direct a movie because of some pompous dick with his own time zone! And going back to the whole lenses fiasco.... Unless it ties into his performance in some way, it is none of Bruce's God damn business what number lenses the DP is using! What does it matter if Smith doesn't know the number of the lens? He obviously knows what he wants, but that's what the DP is there for. To know the number so the Director doesn't have to. He's free to worry about everything else, like for example, if the actors are conveying the proper emotion in a given scene in the proper manner.

Having said all that, however, Rian Johnson said he worked with Bruce Willis on Looper and didn't experience any of what Kevin was talking about. I mean, it took 20 years for Smith to finally stand up to Harvey Weinstein's abhorrent behavior. Maybe Willis is just one of those guys who yells at you because he wants you to yell back and won't respect you until you do?

It's too bad you weren't in the room for this episode.... You have the floor now. What are your thoughts on Kevin Smith, his work and Red State?

Thumbs up Thumbs down

Re: Submission 001 - RED STATE

johnpavlich wrote:

Well, there's no I in "Team", Bruce.

Re: Submission 001 - RED STATE

Team does have a M and a E in it, though...

I write stories! With words!
http://www.asstr.org/~Invid_Fan/

Thumbs up Thumbs down

Re: Submission 001 - RED STATE

johnpavlich wrote:

I mean, it took 20 years for Smith to finally stand up to Harvey Weinstein's abhorrent behavior.

What's that then?

Extended Edition - 146 - The Rise Of Skywalker
VFX Reel | Twitter | IMDB | Blog

Re: Submission 001 - RED STATE

Faldor wrote:
johnpavlich wrote:

I mean, it took 20 years for Smith to finally stand up to Harvey Weinstein's abhorrent behavior.

What's that then?

Harvey is kind of known for being a crass, obnoxious loudmouth. There's a Mallrats story about him being in a small room with a bunch of cast and crew, and putting his cigar out on the floor. More to the point though, there's this:

Last edited by johnpavlich (2012-01-11 21:44:59)

Thumbs up Thumbs down

Re: Submission 001 - RED STATE

Thanks for posting that video.

Had a good time listening to this "rant," even though I guess I disagree with the reactions. I can't argue any of the points made, all I can say is that I enjoyed Red State after watching it. Would definitely recommend it to my friends. I didn't mind the ending at all, but maybe that had more to do with the fact I had no idea what the horns even meant until Goodman explained it afterward.

I enjoyed the viewpoint in the audio of a former huge Kevin Smith fan who was sad seeing this film, and what Kevin Smith the director had become in his eyes. While I don't feel the same way about Smith, I definitely had a similar experience with Mel Brooks years back. It's like a shot in the gut watching a piece of crap made my someone who was so spectacular.

Thumbs up Thumbs down

Re: Submission 001 - RED STATE

Ah, for the days when Harvey Weinstein was just a small time crooked concert promoter in Buffalo. If only he had used the name 'Harvey and Corky' for his movie company smile

I write stories! With words!
http://www.asstr.org/~Invid_Fan/

Thumbs up Thumbs down

Re: Submission 001 - RED STATE

I liked Red State, but get the criticisms.

And Smith did edit it while shooting; you're right on about that, though I actually liked the editing in this.

Thumbs up Thumbs down

Re: Submission 001 - RED STATE

Huh. Wasn't expecting this. Seems odd to me, but whatever. Anyone have similar (or different) reactions/thoughts?

http://www.craveonline.com/film/intervi … ated-movie

Thumbs up Thumbs down

Re: Submission 001 - RED STATE

I heard that was more of a Jason Mewes project than Kevin Smiths.

Thumbs up Thumbs down

Re: Submission 001 - RED STATE

Even for those who liked the film, you'll probably still enjoy this. And for those of you who more or less hated the film, then you'll fucking love it! http://www.the-editing-room.com/red-state.html

Thumbs up Thumbs down

Re: Submission 001 - RED STATE

That script wasn't that abridged.

Thumbs up Thumbs down