Topic: Huge list of things that bug me about TDKR [SPOILERS]

There's no fridge logic here, only the things that I've noticed while watching the movie for the first time. I've skipped over some things that were mentioned in different threads. I blame insomnia for this...




Bruce's leg thing is retarded. Not only the 'lack of cartilage' explanation makes no sense but it also serves no purpose. To add insult to injury they fix it with a magic brace that allows him to kick holes in brick walls. He never uses that on Bane though.

Bruce lets Selina steal his mother's pearls just so we can have an excuse to see him in the Batcave. Those pearls aren't worth really that much anyway. I mean it's not like Bruce's parents died because of them and it set him on a path of becoming the ultimate ninja-vengeance-ass-kicking-machine or anything. I guess the pretty lady can keep them from now.

Selina escapes by doing a backflip from a window for no reason. Go realism!

(Before anyone starts shouting that this is a Batman movie let me clarify: if you're Batman; you get to do borderline impossible stuff. If you're a regular person; you don't get that privledge. Beauty isn't a superpower.)

After Bane shows up Alfred tells this creepy story of a mysterious prison that's so awful, dark and evil, filled with horrible things where terrible people get thrown in to rot. And sometimes, that darkness spits something out....and that's where Bane comes from. Cool. Except, they throw Bruce in there and it's the most evenly lit place on the planet. It's also filled with ugly but nice people that will give you food, medical attention, help you with your back excercises, hold the rope for you when you try to escape and even chant encouraging things to motivate you. The food sucks but other than that it's like going on a holiday.

Remember the leg brace? (oh yeah I'm not done with that). I'm guessing that when Bane's thugs stripped Bruce of his armor they didn't let him keep the magic kick enhancer he was wearing. Therefore, as someone with no cartilage in his legs he shouldn't be able to walk without that cane. Yet somehow 5 scenes later he's doing parkour on the walls of the prison. I guess if you can fix a dislocated vertebrae by punching it really hard you can also regrow some cartilage. The good doctor probably kicked him in the knee until it regenerated.

And while we're on the subject of the good doctor: Remember how Batman Begins was all about Bruce becoming the man with no fear so he can be the ultimate ninja warrior? Turns out that's all bullshit because Bruce must now become afraid in order to escape from the underground prison. Yeah, forget the secret ninja teachings. The blind morphine addict has it all figured out for you. I'm sure that fear is the key to making that scary jump that a child could make. Being a grown man that's twice as tall won't be of any help in this case. We all know that little kids have insane jumping abilities. That's why 8 year olds dominate in the Olympics all the time.

During the fight with Bane Batman kills the lights. Banetells him he was born in darknes, (I assume) referring to the story of a child born in the prison-holiday-resort I've mentioned earlier. Later we find out that the legendary child is Talia, not Bane. So Bane is either lying or his mother gave birth to him at night when the electric grid was down.

During that same fight when Bane is whooping Batman's ass at no point he decides to utilizee any of the useful gadgets in his utility belt. Having spikes, explosives, a grapnel gun, batarangs, and god knows what else at his disposal he decides to go for the 'instant darkness' machine. When that fails somehow he figures out that the best way to take out a guy in a breathing mask is to throw the 'puffy smoke maker' thingy at him. Are you kidding me?

Terrorists take over wall street. They take over a hundred people hostage. There's police everywhere. Bane uses Bruce Wayne's fingerprints to bankrupt his company. The next day the world decides those transactions were legit despite the whole hostage situation, the fact that Bruce was nowhere near that building at the time and noone has seen him.

As we know all unstable reactor cores evolve a giant LED clock that show the precise detonation time. It's a well known fact. That's why people in Chernobyl were so chill during the whole meltdown thing. "THE REACTOR IS COING CRIT.... oh wait, nevermind... the clock appeared... we still have 3 hours to go, I'm gonna grab a sandwich before we evac".

Bane goes out like a bitch. Batman feels betrayed by Selina because she stole his thunder. He then decides that the best way to make up for it is to use his flying Batwing to machinegun the fuck out of the truck driver and kill Talia in the process. Because you know, fuck the no gun/no killing rule.

Selina Kyle dresses up in leather to make her ass look nice. Her outfit serves no other purpose. Like every other elite thief she wears 10 inch heels for their revolutionary stealth capabilities. Also they make running and kung fu easier. Batman should invest in those. Also her mask doesn't work and we almost never see her with her goggles down because the filmmakers decided they didn't like the look. They cut around them as much as possible. She flicks the goggles down, shots the wall of cars to unblock the tunnel acces, we cut back and her goggles are already up. This happens throughout the whole movie.

Blake makes the connection between a playboy billionaire that sleeps with everything that moves, runs the biggest company on the planet and does crazy shit left and right and a superhero that beats people to near-death at night dressed as a bat. He figures that out because Bruce has a fake smile. As we all know: fake smile = Batman. (I'm practicing my fake smile RIGHT NOW)

Bane biulds a tunnel under Wayne Enterprises and steals Batman's tech. Maybe I've missed something but apart from Bruce and Fox noone knows that Applied Sciences even exist. Even in Batman Begins it was a tiny, dead end department and by TDK it's established that it's gone from the records. After the totally-not-shady-wall-street-terrorist-fingerprint-deal everything gets reposessed EXCEPT Applied Sciences because it does not exist and noone knows about it. Yet somehow Bane knows exactly where to find all the good stuff. He must've read the script. (Talia could't have known because she doesn't even know where the reactor is, and that's clearly IN the books).

Scarecrow is in this movie for no goddamn reason.

Batman 'defeats' Bane by punching his mask. That same tactic resulted in a broken spine 5 months earlier. Batman must've put his leg brace on his elbow that day.

Bane punches a hole in a concrete pillar. Hurray for realism.

Bruce teleports from the desert to Gotham, which is guarded by the army that makes sure noone gets in or out. Frankly, I don't even know how he got back to America. He's broke at that point. I'm pretty sure that makes air travel a bit difficult.

Batman outruns a nuke. (Although to be fair, if it wasn't for all that stuff above I would've let that slide.)

After 'sneaking' back into Gothem. Batman's first order of business is to paint a giant bat logo on the face of a building. I assume he does that with gasoline, making round trips up and down the building while being undetected in a city ruled by criminals. I would've thought that going after that nuke immediately would be pretty important too but no, arts and crafts always come first.

If you put 5 thousand  policemen against a comparable group of criminals and give them firearms they won't shoot eachother. Instead they'll meet in an open space and settle their differences through hand-to-hand combat.

Apparently Bruce has been hitting the books during those last 8 years. In the previous two movies Lucius was supplying all of Batman's tech and was basically the brains of the operation. Even when Fox was explaining how he made the antidote for Scarecrow's fear gas Bruce was like 'huh? what? did that supposed to mean anything to me?'. In TDKR however he's reprogramming autopilots on unconventional, one of a kind, prototype flying machines. Good for you Bruce.
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If you feel that I'm wrong about any of this please enlighten me. I'll gladly cross some stuff off that list if you convince me it makes sense smile

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Re: Huge list of things that bug me about TDKR [SPOILERS]

A lot of that was very nitpicky. I wasn't at all bothered by most of those things.

Last edited by Sam F (2012-08-16 04:04:49)

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Re: Huge list of things that bug me about TDKR [SPOILERS]

Squiggly_P wrote:

the fear thing you've got backwards. He had to let go of his fear to make the jump. Fear was represented by the rope. I think confidence would have been a better word, but I guess fear works. Fear of falling = wear a rope. Rope prevents you from making jump. The prisoners should have just added a few feet to the rope and they all would have got out.

No, you missed the point. It wasn't that the rope was physically preventing him from making it across. It's that, psychologically, he lacked the fear of falling because he knew the rope was there to prevent him from dying. Lacking that fear, he didn't push himself as hard as he needed to, and therefore couldn't make the jump. When he knew that he had to either make it or die, having the fear of death -- having no choice but to succeed or die -- is why he succeeded.

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Re: Huge list of things that bug me about TDKR [SPOILERS]

The one thing that bothered me was during the first Bane/Batman fight, I thought Bats threw his batarangs at Bane.  Bane had some sorta invisible shield thingy that stopped the batarangs from hitting him.  I was like "WHAT!?" when that happened.  Bane said something after that but I couldn't make it out.  I think the venom angle would have worked.  If the venom caused Bane to not feel pain, that would be a dangerous thing if Bane was really as strong as they say he was.

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Re: Huge list of things that bug me about TDKR [SPOILERS]

Lamer wrote:

Bruce lets Selina steal his mother's pearls just so we can have an excuse to see him in the Batcave. Those pearls aren't worth really that much anyway. I mean it's not like Bruce's parents died because of them and it set him on a path of becoming the ultimate ninja-vengeance-ass-kicking-machine or anything. I guess the pretty lady can keep them from now.

I saw this more that Bruce knew he was going to track her down and get them back - why bother trying to physically stop her right then?

Lamer wrote:

After Bane shows up Alfred tells this creepy story of a mysterious prison that's so awful, dark and evil, filled with horrible things where terrible people get thrown in to rot. And sometimes, that darkness spits something out....and that's where Bane comes from. Cool. Except, they throw Bruce in there and it's the most evenly lit place on the planet. It's also filled with ugly but nice people that will give you food, medical attention, help you with your back excercises, hold the rope for you when you try to escape and even chant encouraging things to motivate you. The food sucks but other than that it's like going on a holiday.

I thought this was somewhat the point here, Bane had been able to build up this fearsome reputation and clearly capitalised on it. And yet like most legends it was mostly bullshit.

Lamer wrote:

Blake makes the connection between a playboy billionaire that sleeps with everything that moves, runs the biggest company on the planet and does crazy shit left and right and a superhero that beats people to near-death at night dressed as a bat. He figures that out because Bruce has a fake smile. As we all know: fake smile = Batman. (I'm practicing my fake smile RIGHT NOW)

There's slightly more going on in the scene than a fake smile!

Lamer wrote:

Bane biulds a tunnel under Wayne Enterprises and steals Batman's tech. Maybe I've missed something but apart from Bruce and Fox noone knows that Applied Sciences even exist. Even in Batman Begins it was a tiny, dead end department and by TDK it's established that it's gone from the records. After the totally-not-shady-wall-street-terrorist-fingerprint-deal everything gets reposessed EXCEPT Applied Sciences because it does not exist and noone knows about it. Yet somehow Bane knows exactly where to find all the good stuff. He must've read the script. (Talia could't have known because she doesn't even know where the reactor is, and that's clearly IN the books).

It is a bit of a stretch I agree. Talia and Bane know that Bruce Wayne is Batman, quite how they've figured this out is a mystery, but the League managed to steal Wayne tech before in Begins so there's a precedent for them knowing about the Applied Sciences division. You've gone in there with the belief that Bruce and Fox are the only ones who know, which is flawed (wasn't there also an employee who tried to blackmail Wayne in DK?). I don't know.... not really a problem for me because I don't feel the need to have a scene where the bad guys explain how they know what they know. Also, the armory might not exist on auditable files but it does exist - it's still a warehouse that requires power, maintenance and occupies space.

Imagination will often carry us to worlds that never were. But without it we go nowhere. - Carl Sagan

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Re: Huge list of things that bug me about TDKR [SPOILERS]

Lamer, are you complaining about things not being realistic in a Batman movie? That's just silly.

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Re: Huge list of things that bug me about TDKR [SPOILERS]

redxavier wrote:

I saw this more that Bruce knew he was going to track her down and get them back - why bother trying to physically stop her right then?

Well I agree that is probably the most nitpicky bit. However, keep in mind that Bruce hasn't been seen in 8 years. He doesn't go out anymore and even when they host the Harvey Dent party at his house he watches from a distance. It's clearly indicated that this is his choice and he doesn't want to be 'out there'. By letting Selina go he chooses to put himself in a situation where he has to go out and get the pearls back.  This goes against everything that had been established about the character up to that point. A guy who just wants to be left alone would point that crossbow at her face and politely asked her to give the pearls back and go away.

A simple fix here is to have Catwoman steal the pearls without meeting Bruce. Then he will have no choice but to get his brain in 'detective' mode, figure out who she is and go out and get the necklace back himself.  Also, circumventing Wayne Manor's security system and getting in and out (almost) undetected would instantly set up Selina as something more than a regular thief.


Lamer wrote:

I thought this was somewhat the point here, Bane had been able to build up this fearsome reputation and clearly capitalised on it. And yet like most legends it was mostly bullshit.

If that's the case then what's the point of showing it and why throw Bruce in there? If it's bullshit then there's no reason to go to all that trouble.  Locking Bruce in a basement with a TV and a broken back would be a much better option than putting him in a hole far from Bane's reach and surrounding him with people that would help him escape.


redxavier wrote:

There's slightly more going on in the scene than a fake smile!

Even so, it's a lousy explanation. The only thing that links Bruce and Blake is that they both went through traumatic experiences as children. He can only go as far as "wow, you're doing exactly what I'm doing to hide my pain and anger. I really see the traumatised kid behind that mask" and yet in the movie it boils down to ""wow, you're doing exactly what I'm doing to hide my pain and anger. You're Batman". If memory serves me right Blake tells Bruce he figured all that out instantly the first time he saw him while he was visiting his orphanage.


redxavier wrote:

It is a bit of a stretch I agree. Talia and Bane know that Bruce Wayne is Batman, quite how they've figured this out is a mystery,

It think Bruce's identity is common knowledge in the League Of Shadows so I don't have a  problem with Bane and Talia knowing who he is.

redxavier wrote:

but the League managed to steal Wayne tech before in Begins so there's a precedent for them knowing about the Applied Sciences division.

Just because they steal tech from Wayne Enterprises doesn't mean they know the exact division it came from. And even if they did, given the way the League operates, I doubt anyone other than Ra's would've had that knowledge.

redxavier wrote:

You've gone in there with the belief that Bruce and Fox are the only ones who know, which is flawed (wasn't there also an employee who tried to blackmail Wayne in DK?).

Ok, you're right. Although, the guy in TDK finds out about it by going through the company's books. In TDKR Fox clearly states that AS is not in the books and I think it's safe to assume that any evidence of it existing has been swiftly swept under the rug.

redxavier wrote:

I don't know.... not really a problem for me because I don't feel the need to have a scene where the bad guys explain how they know what they know. Also, the armory might not exist on auditable files but it does exist - it's still a warehouse that requires power, maintenance and occupies space.

The same could be said about the giant reactor hidden in the city. Batman's 'aromory' isn't a warehouse. It's a space underneath Wayne Enterprses accessible only by Fox's secret elevator. So even if we assume that Talia went through 10 years worth of WE history and found Applied Sciences, she still wouldn't know where to look for the gadgets it produced.

Kyle Monroe wrote:

Lamer, are you complaining about things not being realistic in a Batman movie? That's just silly.

Lamer wrote:

(Before anyone starts shouting that this is a Batman movie let me clarify: if you're Batman; you get to do borderline impossible stuff. If you're a regular person; you don't get that privledge. Beauty isn't a superpower.)

I am actually. While "It's a Batman movie" is a valid point, it's not a get out of jail free card. This trilogy is supposed to be a realistic take on Batman. That's why they spend all that time explaining his gadgets, tech, origins and try to keep everything as believable as possible. You can't adhere to the rules as much as possible in one movie and then not give a crap about them in the next. If this was Batman $ Robin I wouldn't care about any of this. In a movie like this however, the little stuff matters. It's what separates a medicore film from a really great one.

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Re: Huge list of things that bug me about TDKR [SPOILERS]

On the subject of the whole "fear" thing, I think it was a great way to tie up the series. The point of TDKR was that being completely without fear was now doing Bruce more harm than good. He fights Bane without fear in the sewers, and he loses badly, because his body can no longer live up to that promise.

As for the leg thing, I thought it was pretty clear that Bruce's leg injuries were more than a little psychosomatic. He was using the cane as an excuse to stay holed up in Wayne Manor. It's only when Selina Kyle does something so bold as steal his mother's pearls that he becomes reinvigorated. He lets her keep the pearls because, in a way, he's impressed by her.

As for the whole "Those transactions were clearly not legal!" argument that keeps popping up everywhere, come on. They say very explicitly in the movie that they may be able to prove fraud in the long run, but for now Wayne is broke. They would have to prove in a court of law that Bane committed fraud in the stock exchange. You can't just say, "Hey everybody, give me my money back, because that was obviously fraud." If that was possible, people would be claiming that every other week to cheat the stock market. This is one "Thing that doesn't make sense in TDKR" that I truly do not understand.

"The Doctor is Submarining through our brains." --Teague

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Re: Huge list of things that bug me about TDKR [SPOILERS]

Doctor Submarine wrote:

On the subject of the whole "fear" thing, I think it was a great way to tie up the series. The point of TDKR was that being completely without fear was now doing Bruce more harm than good. He fights Bane without fear in the sewers, and he loses badly, because his body can no longer live up to that promise.

But the only thing that his newfound fear allowed him to achieve is a slightly better jumping distance. Do they come back to it again at some point?

Doctor Submarine wrote:

As for the leg thing, I thought it was pretty clear that Bruce's leg injuries were more than a little psychosomatic. He was using the cane as an excuse to stay holed up in Wayne Manor. It's only when Selina Kyle does something so bold as steal his mother's pearls that he becomes reinvigorated. He lets her keep the pearls because, in a way, he's impressed by her.

'You have no cartilage in your knee' is not a psychosomatic problem. It means your leg is fucked. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=F8YLJxiNh9Y

Doctor Submarine wrote:

As for the whole "Those transactions were clearly not legal!" argument that keeps popping up everywhere, come on. They say very explicitly in the movie that they may be able to prove fraud in the long run, but for now Wayne is broke. They would have to prove in a court of law that Bane committed fraud in the stock exchange. You can't just say, "Hey everybody, give me my money back, because that was obviously fraud." If that was possible, people would be claiming that every other week to cheat the stock market. This is one "Thing that doesn't make sense in TDKR" that I truly do not understand.

Did Bane's actions made Wayne Enterprises bankrupt or did he just spend all of Bruce's private money?

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Re: Huge list of things that bug me about TDKR [SPOILERS]

Lamer wrote:

It's also filled with ugly but nice people that will give you food, medical attention, help you with your back excercises

The exercises come after the healing karate chop. Personally, I question any hospital where the OR is also the rehab facility.

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Re: Huge list of things that bug me about TDKR [SPOILERS]

Wow - you noticed all that the first time in real time? Impressive. I'm struggling just to keep up with Nolan's fast-paced dense plot and Bane's vocalization. I suspect Nolan cuts like that so fanboys have to see it twice to get what's going on. Twice the box-office.

You should send the list to RLM - good fodder for a Plinkett commentary/analysis.

not long to go now...

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Re: Huge list of things that bug me about TDKR [SPOILERS]

Lamer wrote:

Scarecrow is in this movie for no goddamn reason.

I want to respond to a lot of these, but I'l start with this.
Scarecrow was the manifestation of the theme of Batman Begins: fear.  I thought that him making a cameo as Gotham's Robespierre worked because it communicated how fear and chaos and evil had come back to Gotham. Think about it: the Scarecrow could never have been in power in the post-TDK Gotham. There is a sense of relative safety and a serious drop in organized crime. Scarecrow returning communicated how the city is regressing without having to show much else.

Lamer wrote:

During the fight with Bane Batman kills the lights. Bane tells him he was born in darknes, (I assume) referring to the story of a child born in the prison-holiday-resort I've mentioned earlier. Later we find out that the legendary child is Talia, not Bane. So Bane is either lying or his mother gave birth to him at night when the electric grid was down.

Well, first of, Bane lying and saying he was born in darkness isn't exactly a plot hole. Maybe he wants to cover up Talia's identity. Maybe he wants to intimidate Batman. People can lie.
I interpreted that line as truth though. Talia doesn't have to be the only child born in the pit. Or perhaps Bane wasn't born in the pit but had a similarly hopeless upbringing, which led to him doing whatever he did that landed him in the prison in the first place. Some of your criticism is valid, but that one really sounds nitpicky.


Catwoman's costume is a topic for another day, but for now I'l say that it works for the image she's painting of herself.

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Re: Huge list of things that bug me about TDKR [SPOILERS]

Lamer wrote:

Selina Kyle dresses up in leather to make her ass look nice. Her outfit serves no other purpose. Like every other elite thief she wears 10 inch heels for their revolutionary stealth capabilities. Also they make running and kung fu easier. Batman should invest in those.

If the news media's dictum is 'don't let the facts get in the way of a good story', then Hollywood's dictum is 'don't let physics or common sense get in the way of what looks cool'

#1 Rule of costume/production/vehicle/ship design - it must look cool
#2 Rule - if it's also practical and obeys the laws of physics, that's a bonus

Look at The Matrix. The rules inside the Matrix were basically 'whatever looks cool' and could vary accordingly.

Which begs the evolutionary psychology question... 'why are some things cool and others not?' What makes something cool?

not long to go now...

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Re: Huge list of things that bug me about TDKR [SPOILERS]

Allison wrote:

I want to respond to a lot of these, but I'l start with this.
Scarecrow was the manifestation of the theme of Batman Begins: fear.  I thought that him making a cameo as Gotham's Robespierre worked because it communicated how fear and chaos and evil had come back to Gotham. Think about it: the Scarecrow could never have been in power in the post-TDK Gotham. There is a sense of relative safety and a serious drop in organized crime. Scarecrow returning communicated how the city is regressing without having to show much else.

Not really. The city's regression is clearly communicated by having rich people dragged onto the streets. After Bane takes over Gotham, threatens everyone with a nuke and declares some bizarre form of martial law we don't really need Crane to show us how the city has taken a turn for the worse. I'm fine with him having a cameo. We didn't really get to see him much in TDK and we don't know what happend to him during those past 8 years. It'd be cool to give him a scene or two just to show what happend to him as a character.

You could show him in an apartment somewhere minding his own business. Indicate that he's now a (seemingly) reformed man. Then he gets attacked by the angry mob and he immediatly feargasses the crap out of them. Then he turns around and walks away. You could play into the 'gotham would always need Batman' theme by having him 'out there'. He'd still have a cameo and it wouldn't feel like he's being shoehorned into the movie.


Allison wrote:

Well, first of, Bane lying and saying he was born in darkness isn't exactly a plot hole.

I never said it was a plot hole.

Allison wrote:

Maybe he wants to cover up Talia's identity. Maybe he wants to intimidate Batman. People can lie. I interpreted that line as truth though. Talia doesn't have to be the only child born in the pit. Or perhaps Bane wasn't born in the pit but had a similarly hopeless upbringing, which led to him doing whatever he did that landed him in the prison in the first place.

That's what I meant by saying "So Bane is either lying or his mother gave birth to him at night when the electric grid was down." However, it doesn't have any meaning in the context of the movie and  makes him a weaker character. Disconnecting Bane from what we thought was his backstory at the end of the movie is like explaining who the Joker was at the end of TDK. 'Yeah, his name is Steve, he used to be an accountant but he fell down some steps and went insane".

avatar wrote:

Look at The Matrix. The rules inside the Matrix were basically 'whatever looks cool' and could vary accordingly.

Yeah but The Matrix had people running on walls, jumping between buildings and dodging bullets. In that movie, if you knew what you're doing you could make the laws of physics your bitch, yet somehow we don't see Trinity running around in stilletos. That didn't stop her from looking cool though.

In Transformers 3 Rosie Huntington-Whiteley's character spends the entire movie outrunning giant robots in high heels. I don't have a problem with that. But the whole idea of this Batman trilogy is to make it as realistic as possible. That's why they spend so much time explaining where Batman got his tech and how it works. Why go through all that trouble if you're gonna turn around and design the supporting character only with 'coolness' in mind. It doesn't make sense and it doesn't work.

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Re: Huge list of things that bug me about TDKR [SPOILERS]

Lamer wrote:
Allison wrote:

I want to respond to a lot of these, but I'l start with this.
Scarecrow was the manifestation of the theme of Batman Begins: fear.  I thought that him making a cameo as Gotham's Robespierre worked because it communicated how fear and chaos and evil had come back to Gotham. Think about it: the Scarecrow could never have been in power in the post-TDK Gotham. There is a sense of relative safety and a serious drop in organized crime. Scarecrow returning communicated how the city is regressing without having to show much else.

Not really. The city's regression is clearly communicated by having rich people dragged onto the streets. After Bane takes over Gotham, threatens everyone with a nuke and declares some bizarre form of martial law we don't really need Crane to show us how the city has taken a turn for the worse. I'm fine with him having a cameo. We didn't really get to see him much in TDK and we don't know what happend to him during those past 8 years. It'd be cool to give him a scene or two just to show what happend to him as a character.

You could show him in an apartment somewhere minding his own business. Indicate that he's now a (seemingly) reformed man. Then he gets attacked by the angry mob and he immediatly feargasses the crap out of them. Then he turns around and walks away. You could play into the 'gotham would always need Batman' theme by having him 'out there'. He'd still have a cameo and it wouldn't feel like he's being shoehorned into the movie.

Is the 'bizarre form of martial law' actually communicated in other ways? Besides having Bane's folks walk around with guns? I think Crane showed the city regressing and the absolute power Bane and his cronies had. There was no getting around that court because of the way Bane had infected the mind of the populace. I liked the Committe for Public Safety parallel and it added some depth for me. I guess we'll agree to disagree. 

Lamer wrote:
Allison wrote:

Maybe he wants to cover up Talia's identity. Maybe he wants to intimidate Batman. People can lie. I interpreted that line as truth though. Talia doesn't have to be the only child born in the pit. Or perhaps Bane wasn't born in the pit but had a similarly hopeless upbringing, which led to him doing whatever he did that landed him in the prison in the first place.

That's what I meant by saying "So Bane is either lying or his mother gave birth to him at night when the electric grid was down." However, it doesn't have any meaning in the context of the movie and  makes him a weaker character. Disconnecting Bane from what we thought was his backstory at the end of the movie is like explaining who the Joker was at the end of TDK. 'Yeah, his name is Steve, he used to be an accountant but he fell down some steps and went insane".

How does it make him a weaker character to say he was used to darkness? We thought his back story was one thing and then were shown it's something else. I don't think it has any affect on the way his character is developed/used..

Lamer wrote:

Bane biulds a tunnel under Wayne Enterprises and steals Batman's tech.

He doesn't build the tunnel. He's in the sewers. It's pretty explicitly stated in Batman Begins that the sewer lines converge right underneath Wayne Tower. It was central to the League's plan.

ETA: I just want to add that I don't think the film was perfect. But the only major thing that bugged me was Catwoman's 180 on her politics (and the politics of the film in general) and Blake's discovery of who Batman was.

Last edited by Allison (2012-08-17 23:39:03)

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Re: Huge list of things that bug me about TDKR [SPOILERS]

Allison wrote:

Is the 'bizarre form of martial law' actually communicated in other ways? Besides having Bane's folks walk around with guns? I think Crane showed the city regressing and the absolute power Bane and his cronies had. There was no getting around that court because of the way Bane had infected the mind of the populace. I liked the Committe for Public Safety parallel and it added some depth for me.

 
I'm not saying that the court itself should be cut from the movie but that you could replace Crane with anyone in those scenes and it wouldn't have mattered. Scarecow was simply misused and having him as the judge seemed forced to me.
 

Allison wrote:

I guess we'll agree to disagree.

 
Agreed smile

Allison wrote:

How does it make him a weaker character to say he was used to darkness? We thought his back story was one thing and then were shown it's something else. I don't think it has any affect on the way his character is developed/used..

Maybe I didn't explain clear enough. Let my try again. Bane saying that he's used to darkness does not make im a weaker character. What does make him a weaker character is what happens towards the end of the movie. Throughout the whole film Bane is being built up as this spawn of Satan that has crawled out of the nastiest, most horrifying place on the planet. The movie even has people calling him 'pure evil'. He's intelligent, fearless and certainly looks and behaves like someone who had fought his way out of hell. By revealing that all of this is a lie you basically cut his balls off. Suddenly he's just a kind hearted guy that helped a defenseless child escape from the pit. For all we know he could've been thrown there for tax evasion or jaywalking. So he wasn't born there and he didn't fight his way out either. He had the crap beaten out of him and was found by Ra's. By showing that the movie ruined his character without gaining anything else in exchange. All Talia accomplished in that pit was the climb. She didn't have to fight to survive and because we got to spend some time in the pit we know that it wasn't really all that bad to begin with.


Allison wrote:
Lamer wrote:

Bane biulds a tunnel under Wayne Enterprises and steals Batman's tech.

He doesn't build the tunnel. He's in the sewers. It's pretty explicitly stated in Batman Begins that the sewer lines converge right underneath Wayne Tower. It was central to the League's plan.

Well he dug his way from underneath. That's what I meant. And it was 'water and power utilities' that were routed through Wayne Tower if we want to be exact. It doesn't matter how you look at it anyway because it still doesn't explain how Bane knew where to look for the good stuff.

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Re: Huge list of things that bug me about TDKR [SPOILERS]

Lamer wrote:

All Talia accomplished in that pit was the climb. She didn't have to fight to survive and because we got to spend some time in the pit we know that it wasn't really all that bad to begin with.

Well, her mother was ripped apart in front of her and she had to escape the same fate...

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Re: Huge list of things that bug me about TDKR [SPOILERS]

Allison wrote:
Lamer wrote:

All Talia accomplished in that pit was the climb. She didn't have to fight to survive and because we got to spend some time in the pit we know that it wasn't really all that bad to begin with.

Well, her mother was ripped apart in front of her and she had to escape the same fate...

Sorry, I need a little more than that. In Batman Begins they don't show you Bruce's parents getting shot and then jump straight to him being Batman.  Stuff happend inbetween. Traumatic childhood experience is not enough to turn Talia from 'that chick that has the hots for Bruce' into the main villain instantly.

The pit backstory works for Bane. It doesn't work for Talia.

In fact, you could erase Talia from the script (while keeping Miranda) and with minor tweaks still have the same movie.

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Re: Huge list of things that bug me about TDKR [SPOILERS]

Sorry to interject here but I had some thoughts on the discussion.

Lamer wrote:

I'm not saying that the court itself should be cut from the movie but that you could replace Crane with anyone in those scenes and it wouldn't have mattered. Scarecow was simply misused and having him as the judge seemed forced to me.

 
I actually thought this was a stroke of genius having Crane as a Robespiere character - the personification of fear in power over Gotham's unfortunate. It would have been too easy to fall into the trap of having Crane appear as Scarecrow and becoming yet another secondary villain.

Lamer wrote:

By showing that the movie ruined his character without gaining anything else in exchange.

I actually thought it was an interesting twist to the usual big bad villain who does bad things for shits and giggles. Essentially, he's doing this all out of love for Talia and casts new light on him. As a result, Bane becomes more than just a one-dimensional 'oh scary' guy.

Imagination will often carry us to worlds that never were. But without it we go nowhere. - Carl Sagan

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Re: Huge list of things that bug me about TDKR [SPOILERS]

redxavier wrote:

Sorry to interject here but I had some thoughts on the discussion.

Lamer wrote:

I'm not saying that the court itself should be cut from the movie but that you could replace Crane with anyone in those scenes and it wouldn't have mattered. Scarecow was simply misused and having him as the judge seemed forced to me.

 
I actually thought this was a stroke of genius having Crane as a Robespiere character - the personification of fear in power over Gotham's unfortunate. It would have been too easy to fall into the trap of having Crane appear as Scarecrow and becoming yet another secondary villain.

Oh I'm not suggesting that we have him running around gassing people left and right. Just acknowledge that he (and others like him) are still around. Anyway, it's not really my biggest issue with the movie and I think we agreed to disagree on that one smile

redxavier wrote:
Lamer wrote:

By showing that the movie ruined his character without gaining anything else in exchange.

I actually thought it was an interesting twist to the usual big bad villain who does bad things for shits and giggles. Essentially, he's doing this all out of love for Talia and casts new light on him. As a result, Bane becomes more than just a one-dimensional 'oh scary' guy.

I'm fine with him doing everything out of love but let's not sacrifice his entire backstory just for that revelation.

Last edited by Lamer (2012-08-19 00:38:57)

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Re: Huge list of things that bug me about TDKR [SPOILERS]

The first time I saw it, I was a bit underwhelmed and disappointed. Just saw it again, and noticed a few things I had missed before, and also just enjoyed it. Much better for me the second time through, the stuff we're talking about here didn't bug me too much.

What did bug me was Bane's voice. Not the effect, the mix. I'm willing to buy that he's a crazy Batman villain and his voice is all Darth Vadery, but it never once sounds like a guy over there with a weird distorty voice amplifier. It always sounds like people in a room that we're listening to, and one guy who's voice is plugged directly into our ears. I think I would have been almost half-again as on board if he sounded "right."

Teague Chrystie

I have a tendency to fix your typos.

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Re: Huge list of things that bug me about TDKR [SPOILERS]

It does sound oddly like a voice over, doesn't it? I felt like there was no sense of distance or volume with his voice.

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Re: Huge list of things that bug me about TDKR [SPOILERS]

Teague wrote:
What did bug me was Bane's voice. Not the effect, the mix. I'm willing to buy that he's a crazy Batman villain and his voice is all Darth Vadery, but it never once sounds like a guy over there with a weird distorty voice amplifier. It always sounds like people in a room that we're listening to, and one guy who's voice is plugged directly into our ears. I think I would have been almost half-again as on board if he sounded "right."

I don't understand this.  I guess once I get it on Bluray, I'll understand what you mean.  Being hearing impaired makes it difficult to spot these kinds of things, at least in a theater setting...

Last edited by switch (2012-08-20 22:44:18)

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Re: Huge list of things that bug me about TDKR [SPOILERS]

I agree about Bane's voice "PA" feel. However,  I had no problem understanding him at all.

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Re: Huge list of things that bug me about TDKR [SPOILERS]

I wish they kept his voice how it was originally, but everyone moaned and groaned about not being able to understand him while watching a terrible cam rip of the prologue.

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