Re: The Fifth Element

We could always resurrect this thread.

Re: The Fifth Element

emfayder wrote:

We could always resurrect this thread.

I don't expect you to know *why* it matters that they're Chinese and not Japanese, I just expect you to know *that* it matters.

Edit: just got the 'prove you're not a bot' thing. Post still worked, though (on iPad).

Last edited by Gregory Harbin (2010-09-24 12:45:12)

Posted from my iPad
http://trek.fm

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Re: The Fifth Element

Hey man, I'm on your side.  Just wanted to suggest a change of venue.  I know when I went through school we were taught U.S. History, and World (read European) History.  I don't remember studying geography after grade school either.  Point is, just about everything I've learned regarding other cultures and their history (outside of studying German in high school) has been as a result of frustration at my own ignorance.  I sincerely hope kids these days are learning more about eastern cultures, especially given the world they are on the road to inheriting.  I have a 6 month old nephew and I joke with my sister about when she's getting him enrolled in Mandarin classes...well, half joke anyway.

...

So...how'd everybody like the wall to wall art in this episode?  Did it help anyone outside of Region 1 stay is sync?  That Luc Besson's something, hu?  I love Ian Holm.  Isn't Milla Jovovich talented? Gary Oldman's got such range.  I prefer Bruce Willis with hair, but I grew up on Die Hard.

Re: The Fifth Element

Down in Front wrote:

I wonder how many times this thread will get derailed.

Alright, I'll bite.

It's a stereotype for a reason. I have literally no ability to distinguish between people of any Asian heritages. I can't pick any one out from any other. That's clearly cultural, because as an English-speaking Caucasian, I have absolutely no problem distinguishing between heritages of other English-speaking Caucasians. Jon Stewart and John Oliver could both be American or British in a picture, but once they open their mouths, yep, one's an American and one's a Brit.

I'm also going to say, for that reason, there's no shame whatsoever in that inability to distinguish. There's also only barely measurable condescension power in being able to. It's not much knowledge to have, I just don't have it, because I haven't ever had a reason to.

The only problem is, you don't assume every white person is an american until they open their mouth.  You simply say, "Hey, it's a white guy."  But too often when people see someone of Asian descent, they ascribe a nationality without any evidence.  I have seen plenty of my white friends say "Who's the Chinese guy?" to people of Korean or Japanese descent.  It's no huge deal, my wife does it all the time.  But by and large, if you don't know, just refer to them as of Asian descent.  Unless you're in the UK.  Over there they refer to Arab or Persians as "Asians."

From a language perspective, I can tell the difference between the Chinese dialects, Japanese, Korean, Thai, and Vietnamese.  I only (barely) speak one of those languages.  With a little attention to detail you can pick it up.

Eddie Doty

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Re: The Fifth Element

I'm pretty sure whoever said "somethingese schoolgirls" wasn't me.

Teague Chrystie

I have a tendency to fix your typos.

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Re: The Fifth Element

I'm just speaking generally, y'all.

Eddie Doty

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Re: The Fifth Element

Astroninja Studios wrote:

The only problem is, you don't assume every white person is an american until they open their mouth.  You simply say, "Hey, it's a white guy."

Unless they're wearing a kilt and carrying bagpipes. Then I think it's justifiable to go "Hey, it's a Scottish guy."

By the same token, which Asian culture is most closely associated, stereotypically, with schoolgirls?

My grade school, high school, and college all had a big Asian population and the majority of my best friends throughout my life have been Asian. I don't say that in the "some of my best friends are Asian" way of exonerating myself from racism, I say that to mention that I've spent a lot of time in my life among many people of varying Asian descent, but to this day, if you showed me a picture of an Asian person I don't know -- without a cultural cue of some kind, just looking at the person's face -- I couldn't tell what their heritage was if my life depended on it.

I'm sure if I, for example, lived in Japan for several years, I'd get a better frame of reference on the differences and with daily exposure they would be apparent to me at a glance. But I haven't, so they aren't.

Which I don't think is particularly unique to Asians, despite the stereotype. I also couldn't tell an Ethiopian African from a Liberian African, nor could I distinguish a Brazilian from an Ecuadorian. I also couldn't tell a Welsh Caucasian from a Dutch Caucasian from a Canadian Caucasian. Unless I was familiar with their culture and they did something culturally significant, or I spent a lot of time there and began to see patterns in hereditary traits.

In the case of this film, we have a cluster of Asian girls in schoolgirl outfits as background extras in a gay French comic book future. The only cultural reference we have is the schoolgirl thing, and even that isn't particularly reliable given the aforementioned gayFrenchcomicbookness. So for lack of expertise in the nuances of the epicanthic fold, and trying to judge with Ruby Rhod all up in my grill, I don't think it was an unreasonably "culturally insensitive" comment to make in passing.

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Re: The Fifth Element

DorkmanScott wrote:
Astroninja Studios wrote:

The only problem is, you don't assume every white person is an american until they open their mouth.  You simply say, "Hey, it's a white guy."

Unless they're wearing a kilt and carrying bagpipes. Then I think it's justifiable to go "Hey, it's a Scottish guy."

By the same token, which Asian culture is most closely associated, stereotypically, with schoolgirls?

Can I destroy that stereotype? I never wear a kilt and wouldn't even know how to hold bagpipes the right way. Plus, we don't all eat Haggis.....yuck. smile

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Re: The Fifth Element

Shifty Bench wrote:
DorkmanScott wrote:

Unless they're wearing a kilt and carrying bagpipes. Then I think it's justifiable to go "Hey, it's a Scottish guy."

Can I destroy that stereotype? I never wear a kilt and wouldn't even know how to hold bagpipes the right way. Plus, we don't all eat Haggis.....yuck. smile

I didn't say all Scottish people do. But I'm saying if a white person IS wearing a kilt and playing bagpipes, it's probably a safe assumption that he IS Scottish, or meant to invoke the association.

If I call the guy Scottish and you go "Hey asshole, that's an Irish tartan and he's playing Uilleann Pipes! DUH!" then, well, I can't be expected to fucking know that at a glance because I don't live there, and just because it's obvious to you because you do live there doesn't mean it isn't actually a subtle thing.

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Re: The Fifth Element

Dude, chill. I don't even know the difference between Irish and Scottish tartan and I don't
know what Uilleann pipes are, so you know more than me big_smile

My post was more of an aside rather than part of the debate. I agree with you, actually.

Last edited by Jimmy B (2010-09-24 18:08:15)

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Re: The Fifth Element

To my ear, the Korean and Japanese languages sound totally identical. I can only pick out Korean when I hear enough of it to realize I haven't understood a single word.

But the various Chinese dialects couldn't sound more different. For starters, Chinese is a tonal language; Japanese is not. That alone is enough to make them sound completely different, even though the share a lot of the same phonemes.

But recognizing somebody on sight? That's tricky. There's more variation between individuals than there is between aggregate populations of closely related racial subgroups. Sometimes Japanese and Chinese people look really Japanese or Chinese, respectively. Sometimes it's much harder to tell at a glance.

And those are the easy ones. If I show you a Han person, a Tibetan person, a Mongol person and a Kyrgyzian person and ask you to pick who's who … well, good luck.

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Re: The Fifth Element

Shifty Bench wrote:

Dude, chill. I don't even know the difference between Irish and Scottish tartan and I don't
know what Uilleann pipes are, so you know more than me big_smile

My post was more of an aside rather than part of the debate. I agree with you, actually.

I'm just making an analogy. It was less addressed to you than to the people who think subtle differences in similar appearances should be instantly obvious to everyone else just because they themselves have daily experience with them.

Not naming names but Gregory.

Jeffery Harrell wrote:

To my ear, the Korean and Japanese languages sound totally identical. I can only pick out Korean when I hear enough of it to realize I haven't understood a single word.

But the various Chinese dialects couldn't sound more different. For starters, Chinese is a tonal language; Japanese is not. That alone is enough to make them sound completely different, even though the share a lot of the same phonemes.

But recognizing somebody on sight? That's tricky.

Yes, that's my point. I said without a cultural cue -- or, to complicate things, with a misleading cultural cue -- I'm not gonna be able to tell the vast majority of the time, unless like you say they look REALLY [whatever they are]. Hearing the language would be a cultural cue.

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Re: The Fifth Element

Shifty Bench wrote:

Dude, chill. I don't even know the difference between Irish and Scottish tartan and I don't even know what Uilleann pipes are, so you know more than me :

I am, however, reasonably sure that within the past 24 hours you've eaten at least three fried things.

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Re: The Fifth Element

Jeffery Harrell wrote:
Shifty Bench wrote:

Dude, chill. I don't even know the difference between Irish and Scottish tartan and I don't even know what Uilleann pipes are, so you know more than me :

I am, however, reasonably sure that within the past 24 hours you've eaten at least three fried things.

I did have fried eggs for lunch big_smile

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Re: The Fifth Element

wow mcdonalds is still going to be around in the distant future.

i wonder if they will still have the McGangeBang?

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Re: The Fifth Element

Down in Front wrote:

I'm pretty sure whoever said "somethingese schoolgirls" wasn't me.

I was really trying to make an effort to not call out the person who said it, because that part isn't really important.

I'm just making an analogy. It was less addressed to you than to the people who think subtle differences in similar appearances should be instantly obvious to everyone else just because they themselves have daily experience with them.

I'd've had no problem if the person had said 'Asian schoolgirls.' But the exact comment was 'of COURSE there would be Japanese schoolgirls,' which means that he was ascribing a certain identity to those schoolgirls which is incorrect.


And I'd also like to clear something up. I'm not saying that you're a racist if you can't tell the difference between a Chinese person and a Japanese person. It's absolutely fine if you can't. It's simply that it's a *trend* on DIF to make incorrect assumptions or be confused about Asian things in general. I'll point you to the guy on the CTHD podcast who didn't realize that Kung Fu and Karate were from different Asian countries.

I'm sure the same thing would be true if you tried to start talking about African things too, but Africa tends to not come up a lot on DIF, and Asia does, and my ears happen to perk up when Asia is mentioned, so here we are.

Drinking game. Not accusations of racism.

Last edited by Gregory Harbin (2010-09-28 09:34:41)

Posted from my iPad
http://trek.fm

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Re: The Fifth Element

What about the French? They make some pretty bad ass Die Hard flicks, from the future.

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Re: The Fifth Element

I just introduced the wife to Down in Front. We watched The Fifth Element with the commentary. It is one of her favorite films, so I was relieved that the hosts for this show more or less liked it. For a movie that quite simply is what it is everyone managed to make it interesting. To enjoy this movie you pretty much have to let go and just go for the ride.

It is a little like Dog Soldiers in that respect. Once you see someone get in a punch up with a werewolf you pretty much know what kind of movie you're in for. Same here, only more Heavy Metal style.

Last edited by insideoutcast (2010-11-06 02:21:42)

Where Geek Meets Goth

Re: The Fifth Element

I actually really liked DOG SOLDIERS for pretty much that reason. Early on you go "Oh, it's going to be like that," but if you accept it on its terms it's actually pretty entertaining. Some fun characters.

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