Game of Thrones (TV Discussion | SPOILERS) (Page 14 of 14)

So...gonna get a bit bookish here without spoiling anything, but I think it's worth mentioning. 

We know one thing for certain: Shireen will die in this manner in Winds of Winter.  Benioff and Weiss said as much when GRRM confirmed it to them in the now infamous 3 day weekend of note taking two years ago.  Here's how I don't think it's character assassination in the books, but am having a hard time how we're supposed to feel that way about the show.

All throughout Dance With Dragons (book, not episode) Melisendre goes on at length about how Shireen is a dead girl walking.  That Greyscale never really goes away, it can just lay dormant and that sooner then later it would not only claim her, but everyone around her.  This is aided by the fact that in DwD, Mel is now a POV character.  Characters lie to each other all the time, but never to the reader.  She's been right more often than not, and she truly believes everything she says to Stannis.  Throughout the other books, they talk about the process of legitimizing bastard children, and that Stannis always has time to MAKE an heir.  This, again, is aided by the fact that everyone is aged down in the books.  Dany is 15, same with Jon Snow, Ned was 36 at the time of his beheading, and he was the same age as Robert.  This places Stannis somewhere in his early 30's.  PLENTY of time to make an heir, if not with Selyse, than with some other woman, and Selyse would be more than happy to claim it was hers. 

Now, as for burning Shireen, that lovely scene with them a few episodes back where everyone was all, "best dad ever!"  That never happened in the books.  In fact, we never really see Stannis have much emotion towards anyone or anything.  The most emotion we EVER see him display is when he's talking to Davos and angrily says, "You think I asked to be king?"  In that moment he explains how he really doesn't want to be.  But it's his DUTY to be as Robert's younger brother.  That's how black and white this guy is.  He has to take that responsibility. 

But...that doesn't really come across in the show, now does it?  I'm very curious to 1) see how Shireens death is handled in WoW, and also to see how the show grapples with Stannis from here on out.  Both will be interesting.

I don't think this is out of character for Stannis at all.  To me, Stannis comes across as a guy who truly desires always to do the "right thing" - but that's different for different people, isn't it?

Unlike others who want the Iron Throne, my impression is that Stannis isn't seeking power for its own sake - he truly believes he is the rightful heir, is all.  He doesn't want to be King - more like he honestly believes he should be.  He went to war against his own brother for trying to usurp the throne when Stannis was next in succession.   

And also unlike others, he really seems to get that winter is coming and the real battle is yet to be fought.  The way he's been portrayed in the entire series is mostly a dogged, resigned trudge to getting this civil war over with as fast as possible, by whatever means he has available.

Not to mention - he's a religious fanatic.  Or at least a true believer - and he ought to be because the Fire God actually does deliver if you pay the toll.  Hell, I saw how Renly died, I believe in the Fire God too. 

So - Stannis is in a bad place.  He's going to lose the war he believes he must win for the good of all.  The Fire God (via Melisandre) says, I can bail you out - but this one's gonna cost you.   As the honorable man Stannis tries to be, and thinks he is, how can he NOT make that sacrifice?  It's not about him, it's about the greater good.    If Stannis can continue on his righteous quest then he did the right thing, by his definition.

Now, the REAL gut punch would be... if the Fire God doesn't make good.  I doubt that's how it's gonna go, but I like pondering what it would do to Stannis to realize he made that sacrifice for nothing.

It was definitely in character and was absolutely inevitable, but nonetheless, it just adds to how much I dislike his character and find his storyline tiresome. Davos is great, but Davos isn't around Stannis anymore (books or show at this point).

I'm sure he still has some important role to play (though hopefully not as AA), but I just can't root for him at all.

Yep, pretty sure you are the last human being on the planet to see it.

And yes it is hilarious.

The bit between Iwan Rheon and Alfie Allen is probably my favorite bit of it all. Just so perfectly captures how weird  general people think being an actor is versus how actually being an actor is.

"Death" might be stretching the concept of what they did a bit far. With both him and Jon they did that cheeky "not gonna show them actually dying, but you can totally trust us they're dead, cause we would never make you think something like that and then reverse it later" thing.

Stannis was particularly bad, for how much of this season has been devoted to Stannis, to have his death be dicked around with the stupid cut away thing feels...just a bit to much like they're trying to do a thing. And same with Jon, they held that shot just a bit too long and focused just a bit too much on that blood for them not to be trying to do a "thing".

Who knows I could be totally wrong and they just decided to say fuck it and kill Stannis off camera, and do some weir editing thing with Jon. But the way it was presented it just felt like they were trying just a bit too hard to do something.

We had Davos appear to die at the end of season two so it has happened before although I get the feeling Stannis is gone for good.

As for Jon, can anyone name a cliff hanger on TV that ends with someone appearing to die and is resolved by them being dead forever?

Breaking Bad did it, Hannibal did it, The Shield did it.

But let's be honest, they'll probably find some way to bring Jon back in some form or another.

Disclaimer: if you dislike the tone of a post I make, re-read it in a North/East London accent until it sounds sufficiently playful

The strongest argument for Jon only being mostly dead is the "Who were his parents?" mystery, which the books and the show have both put a fair bit of time into dangling as a big reveal to come someday.   

All the more so since that was the famous question GRRM asked Benioff and Weiss when they were seeking the rights to turn the books into a series.  They answered correctly, and the rest is history.   Would Martin have asked that question if Jon's story was ultimately just going to be a dead end?   

I suppose there could be a way to someday say "Hey, remember that guy who died?  Guess who his parents were?" and have that still matter somehow, but it seems like it'd be kinda hard to make that work. 

I wouldn't be at all surprised if Jon ends up in a new body somehow.  That would satisfy Kit Harrington being told he was done, and still keep the Azhor Ahai prophecy somewhat intact.

Death is an escape.

Theon's switch didnt come out of nowhere. They've been building up to it all season long.

Also,

It wasn't a hill, it was snowdrift.

Last edited by Sam F (2015-06-19 00:25:53)