The Star Wars 7 Thread (SPOILERS. SERIOUSLY. ALL THE SPOILERS.) (Page 10 of 12)

Okay, I think you're exaggerating. The forest duel was tense as all hell, plot contrivance has *always* been a part of Star Wars, the final sequence may go on a bit long for some people's taste but it's not completely absurd.

I'm not gonna deny there weren't problems, but there isn't a single perfect Star Wars movie. The original is plagued by a horrible script, Empire has a huge character problem for Leia, Jedi is just straight up bad at a lot of parts. But ultimately the characters and the world redeem those movies' flaws, just like IMO they do here. I'm not saying you don't have valid criticisms of the movie, but to act as if they somehow cripple it is to do it an immense disservice. TFA was a whole lot of fun, and introduced amazing new characters we cared about, which is more than any of the prequels or indeed most action movies these days can say. Was it the best film of the year? No, but realistically was it ever going to be?

I think people, myself included, like to venerate the OT as a perfect shiny thing that can never be touched, but it's not the Holy Grail of film. I think that it's a tremendous achievement that introduced a world that I love and characters who are like family to me while hugely advancing filmmaking craft and working its way into pop culture. It's not this perfect untouchable thing, though, and if anything I think TFA is *less* flawed than ROTJ. For me personally, letting go of this need for everything about my Star Wars to be perfect has made me a far happier person. I still dislike the prequels because they're almost nothing *but* flaws and commit the crime of not being engaging, but I don't feel a need for the OT or the new movies to be perfect works of art anymore. Just to be fun, and feature people I care about, and not be abominably, condescendingly stupid. Just to be really solid, really beautiful popcorn flicks with hints of greater things scattered throughout, which is all the OT really is. And I say all that without my love for those films diminishing one iota.

Last edited by Abbie (2016-03-14 16:47:26)

I disagree about the forest scene, but that's probably just taste. Plot contrivance has been a part of Star Wars, but TFA's contrivance was prequel level (like c3po being built by anakin) stuff. But granted, I am exaggerating the badness of the final sequence.

Most important, I said tfa was very star warsy, but a bad movie. The originals were good movies with issues, the prequels were not star warsy AND bad movies. Ultimately, it's not an objective statement.

1) Despite Dameron being a high-value prisoner, after being shot down, nobody checks to make sure they're dead. Literally nothing was stopping a pilot from flying over and checking the wreckage.

2) While I DO buy the Force granting a certain level of reflexive ability in piloting ships, I do not buy that having the force allows Rey to fly a ship when she has no idea what any of the buttons actually do. I don't care if she played in broken ships all her life. Luke and Anakin had some experience with flying SOMETHING. The force simply granted them better reflexes.

3) The first thing they run into after leaving the planet's atmosphere is Han and Chewie's barge (that DOES make sense, since the Falcon's beacon let him know it was flying again). Soooo....where is the First Order? They just lost fighters to the Falcon. They knew the droid was on the ship that just took off from Jakku, but instead of the Order meeting them with their whacking giant ships, it's Han and Chewie who find them. Then gangsters. The first order conveniently fade from the story.

4) The lightsaber is on the same planet that Han goes to for information. Which allows Rey to find it. Please. MAYBE Luke foresaw that Rey would find it because Force, but that's iffy.

5) The bad guys make the same damn mistake the empire made before. I've said this before, it makes for IDIOTIC, WEAK, LAME villains who build a bigger death star with a nearly identical weakness. Convenient. This, ultimately, is what broke the movie for me. I was willing to shut my brain off for the other conveniences, but this was too much. It's why the 3rd act is weak, because we've seen all this, but more importantly, because the villains are no longer a threat. It's even the perfect setup for a "gotcha" false-resolution, but nope.

6) Phasma could have single-handedly prevented the entire mission from succeeding by pressing an alarm while she was in the computer. But she was afraid to die, I guess? Despite the years of conditioning (which failed on Finn, I know, but there was absolutely NOTHING to foreshadow Phasma being a pushover). Her complacency is a glaringly bad Deus ex Machina that allows the good guys to win.

7) The section of the map that bb-8 has is relatively a GIGANTIC CHUNK of the galaxy. There's no way the resistance couldn't have pinpointed exactly where luke was based solely on that section alone. That's like if the only info I had to find someone was an address on a map of New York state, but I couldn't find it because the rest of the USA wasn't on the map. Oh, and I can't use another map of the States because reasons.

Those are the main contrivances I saw. I know there are deleted scenes and a novelization that explains some of the stuff, but screw that. A good movie is responsible for being coherent on its own. Supplemental material can enrich the experience, but it shouldn't be necessary.

Maybe you don't think these are bad, but, in my opinion, they make for a bad movie.

Pure subjectivity.

Last edited by Writhyn (2016-03-15 19:50:36)

I don't remember her mentioning being a pilot. I eat my words.

As for ROTJ........................yeah it's not great for several reasons, but for me the emotional resonance in the Emperor's Throne Room scenes carries the entire damn film. If that part of the 3rd act had sucked, yeah I'd have the same problem with it as I have with TFA for the same reason.
If the end battle hadn't been a copy or had been subverted in some way, I would happily overlook all its flaws.

Last edited by Writhyn (2016-03-16 00:22:14)

I suppose it just comes down to one's reaction to the forest duel, then. For whatever reason it didn't work for you, for a lot of us it worked like gangbusters in the same way that the Throne Room does. I am curious though, what about that portion of the climax isn't satisfying for you?

Star Wars has always been allegorical to me, and they're characters movies, especially The Force Awakens. The story lived by the characters and what it's telling me is more important than the script itself, which is why even if I should be bothered by some of the points Writhyn described... I'm not.

Yes, Starkiller is Death Star 3.0, and yes, the First Order is probably dumb as hell to make the same mistake all over again. But come on, this is a Star Wars movie. It's been 40 years, we all know the baddies won't win. Never at any point in the film did I really care about the Resistance/First Order fight. It makes for cool action scenes, but my focus is on Rey and Kylo Ren.

Now the movie would certainly have benefited from better thought-out details, but my experience of the movie is still very good. It might sound apologetic, but in the end I don't care about such details - and I might have, for other kinds of movies, but this is Star Wars. It's the same thing as RotJ, really. I have never really thought about the weaknesses in the script - the Throne Room sequence is such a powerful climax to Luke's journey than it shuts down any other problem. It carries the film, and allows the parallel scenes to become breathers for that sequence.

As Writhyn said... pure subjectivity. But SW is one of these few instances where I deliberately choose not to care. It might all be a cash grab, these new episodes... but they have the cleverness to include fully fleshed-out characters so far (which might slightly be less the case for Finn, who's my least liked new character).

Last edited by Saniss (2016-03-16 09:42:53)

Redxavier:

To your first point: Granted.

Overall, most of the world disagrees with my opinion of SW7. I think it overuses convenience to help the good guys. And it overuses the same plot (note: the same THEME does not bother me) from prior movies.

It's broken for me. I wish it wasn't, but there you have it.

Edit: BTW I don't think I'm being TOO scrutinous (?). These things bothered me WHILE I was watching the movie. I didn't even GET to the "fridge".

Edit: SW7 could be compared to Abrams' Star Trek films in my feelings.

Star Trek was fun. It also had a lot of Fridge Logic. Lots of "what?" moments. BUT, I enjoyed it so much because the 3rd act was tight.

Into Darkness, for ME, is very much like Force Awakens. Lots of "what?" moments, and the 3rd act is hyper-convenient, pulls its punches, and doesn't really work. Into Darkness fizzles, whereas I don't think Star Trek did. The Force Awakens is more Darkness than Trek.

Last edited by Writhyn (2016-03-16 13:49:01)

I get ya Writhyn, I have the same problem with The Dark Knight. For most people Heath Ledger's Joker carries the movie for them, but I just can't get past how little sense that movie makes. I just can't suspend my disbelief enough. TFA still works for me, but after Han's death I kinda just sit back and wait for the movie to end.

Star Trek is shock full of contrivances which are far more egregious than anything in TFA. Though it's ironic that one of my least favourite things in TFA is mirrored in Star Trek (characters seeing planets light years away getting blown up with the naked eye).

The scrutiny is a thing that only ever comes out when one dislikes a movie. None of the issues you mentioned are actually bad. You choose to highlight these trivial aspects to retrospectively justify why you didn't like the movie. That's fine to do. But they don't make TFA a really bad or broken movie. None of these are near the level of a villain whose motivations make no fucking sense (looking at you Nero).

... wait, how does TFA pull its punches in the third act? I don't think that means what you think it means 

Last edited by redxavier (2016-03-16 20:43:50)

This is where an Attack of the Clones-length film would actually have been warranted. TFA is paced quickly enough that an additional five or ten minutes wouldn't hurt it much if at all, and the confirmed deleted scenes which feature Leia and her aide talking in detail about the political situation between the Republic and the Resistance (the aide was going to the capital in order to request aid against the First Order) would've gone a long way toward shoring up the world-building questions as well as the impact of the big boom.

Last edited by Abbie (2016-03-17 00:48:45)

Hey, we coulda done that instead of walking up a shit ton of hills. Seems like a better use of our time.