Bathilda wrote:P.P.S. I'm curious what Cotterpin thinks of all this.
I meant to jump back in sooner, but I knew it was going to take a while to gather my thoughts, which meant putting it off until Sunday.
First off, regarding The Little Mermaid as an anti-feminist work, I've heard this argument many, many times. I disagree heartily with the idea that it's anti-feminist and don't see it as problematic. Without straying too far into strawman territory, the primary complaint usually I usually hear is about how Ariel "gives up everything for a man," which seems to me an inaccurate and reductivist reading of the story. Personally, I think Ariel's motivations are fairly complex for a 90 minute kids' movie. For one thing, Ariel never directly says, "I'm doing this for love of Eric!" It's implied, and Ursula, Flotsam, and Jetsam use it as the primary focus of the argument to convince her, but she never echoes their point. And once she becomes human, a great deal of time is spent focused on Ariel enjoying the human world in addition to her efforts to woo Eric. There's also the fact that two women are driving the action in film in which two men are the prize, which is just brilliant.
Phi wrote:To be fair, most Hollywood movies promote a version of romantic love that, if not quite completely toxic, is at least unrealistic.
This is a big point for me. I'm not willing to judge a story with a female protagonist by standards well above and beyond those by which I would judge a male-driven story. I mean, honestly, when was the last time you heard someone complain about the lengths to which Aladdin goes to win over Jasmine? Movies have a limited time to get you from point A to point B, and that often means a lot of tropes are employed to move the narrative along swiftly, including the idea of love at first sight. This works very well for children (I've had plenty of kids tell me that they love me by the end of a 50 minute English class), but may stretch credulity with an older audience.
Now for my part, the complaints against The Little Mermaid have largely come from other women, and I don't typically see a lot of men adopting feminist language to disparage its quality. Bathilda is so right to acknowledge that this forum really is very different when it comes to the nature and quality of the conversation. More often than not, though, feminist issues in "mainstream" media are largely overlooked, and media for women and girls just isn't taken seriously at all. I've long been a big fan of romance novels and the sort of paranormal young adult stuff of which Twilight is a part, and I don't remember any of this sort of talk when I was a kid. That may be because, as redxavier points out, kids often take away a different message than their parents. And as much as she hated them, my mother has never asked my why I like romance novels so much, nor bothered to read one herself.
Eddie wrote:Like Mike, I m not fully qualified to say Twilight is anti-feminist. I'm quite certain however, that Twilight promotes a version of romantic love that is completely toxic to all involved, and extraordinarily dangerous to both young men and women.
I never finished reading Twilight because it's a very poorly written book. But I have read a lot of poorly written paranormal romance, and I don't think it's a particularly egregious example. I actually got much farther into Twilight than I did The Da Vinci Code or that ridiculous POS Eragon. Much like claims that violent video games turn kids into murderous psychopaths, overall, I think questions of Twilight's manifest evil are greatly exaggerated. Would I prefer that a better book had gotten all of that acclaim? Hell yes! But I promise you, regardless of its dubious quality, there are very few young fans out there planning their future romantic exploits based on the scrawlings of Stephanie Meyers.
With regards to the male point-of-view in a feminist dialogue, I'd probably require a more rigorous argument from a guy, but I like to think I'm willing to listen to all perspectives. Same with race. Prove that you know your stuff, and we'll see where the conversation takes us.