I shouldn't have to, but : SPOILERS
@DorkmanScott: A couple things I want to clear up...
DorkmanScott wrote:Most egregious, to me, is that Ellen Page is set up to be someone who can alter and warp the world of the dream at will, even mid-dream. Once the shit starts hitting the fan, that should have been happening constantly in her efforts to save them from Fischer's homicidal subconscious. Obviously having a character in unrestricted God Mode would be kind of lame, so you'd have to come up with ways to restrict her. Her alterations would have to have unintended consequences that ultimately made things worse. Any number of possibilities here.
The movie would not have made sense if Ellen did any of that. They set up clearly from the beginning that in shared dreaming there is only one "dreamer" referred to as the "architect" of that specific dream. What makes Ellen's character special is that she is a really GOOD architect, but that does not allow her to change someone else's dream, essentially. When the team was trying to extract from Saito near the beginning, he makes the comment "well, if this is my dream then I'm in control" to which they reply "that's not how it works. It's not your dream." And the nameless dude who was their architect states that it was his. When Ellen was practicing with Arthur, he was set up as the architect, showing her how to make a paradox. Notice at no point does she try one herself. She's not the architect. Her main purpose to the mission was to design the complicated mazes then teach them to the team members who were actually going to be the architects of the respective levels.
DorkmanScott wrote:On a related note, the dream world was surprisingly literal and consistent. Dreams are weird. That shit with Paris folding over itself? Stuff like that should be happening on its own, all the time, not just because Ellen Page is a kooky wunderkind. It should be the job of the architects to try and keep the world coherent against the wild imaginations of the dreamers' subconsciouses. More like ETERNAL SUNSHINE, less like THE MATRIX.
If Ellen were the architect during the actual mission, it might have happened. None of the three members who were architects (Yousef, Arthur and Eames ... forgive me if I butcher a character's name) were as good as Ellen's character. Also, the subconscious would have reacted in a hostile fashion. Sure, there were goons already coming after them, but that doesn't mean it couldn't have gotten worse. The rest of the populace was not coming for them. They could have all descended upon them like when Ellen was messing with Paris in the test with Cobb, or when the mob came for the architect in Saito's.
DorkmanScott wrote:The time dilation was not used to its full potential, nor was it consistent. Probably half an hour of the movie takes place while the van is falling, which is only supposed to give JG-L ~3 minutes to do what he's got to do, and the guys on the snow level ~20.
Two things. First, snow level got 60 minutes, not 20. Yousef mentions when he is introduced that his home-made sedative increased the time disparity to twenty times normal. Secondly, most of the van chase took place during the hotel level. They went to the snow level right before he signaled Arthur that he was going to take the van over the edge. They just got to the third level, so I felt that the slowness of the van going over the edge and falling was appropriate, as now there was a new level of 20x time disparity.
DorkmanScott wrote:There is no way JG-L did all that in three minutes, and I'm hard-pressed to believe the snow level took only twenty.
I agree that it doesn't seem likely Arthur could do that in 3 min, though I'm hard-pressed to believe the snow level for the exact opposite reason: it felt too quick for 60 minutes.
DorkmanScott wrote:But more than that, we were told they'd be in the respective dream states for 1 week, 6 months, and 10 years. They were only in each one for a couple hours, max. Think of the storytelling, and character, potential of having ten years to do the job; to get to know the mark, befriend him, manipulate him -- not to mention the characters' relationships with each other. Some of them might start to have second thoughts, alliances forged and broken, etc. Though this kind of story would probably need way more than a movie -- a miniseries, probably, if not a full-season TV run. Be a pretty thrilling season of TV though.
Miniseries potential aside (I do agree with you on the potential of that), They were planning on being in the dream for much longer than they were ... but that was before Saito got shot. Eames even complains that he was supposed to have a "day, at the least" to play out the hostage role with Fischer. The week, 6 months, 10 years was just a time limit on how long they have to complete the mission.
DorkmanScott wrote:Last thing, the explicit statement "As we go deeper into [Fischer], we also go deeper into [Cobb]." I didn't see that, at all. Other than the incursion of the freight train, we don't get a lot of "Cobb's obsession is altering the dream uncontrollably." I mean, the second level down is a hotel. You have the characters diving deeper into the subconscious, into a hotel, and you don't have the fictitious hotel suddenly cross with the hotel where Mal killed herself? Come on. All we ever have is Cobb occasionally spotting his kids playing with their backs to him. Add more specific elements to the backstory and have those elements start to clash more and more with the mission. The train was a great start, but MOAR.
This does actually happen, but you need to remember that at no point on the three levels is Cobb the architect. His subconscious can intrude by creating objects/projections ... but he can't do anything structural. The train is the largest, most intrusive one, but is gone pretty quickly. On the hotel level, there ARE actually two specific instances (that I can remember, there may be more) of the crossover with the honeymoon apartment. The first is when Cobb is starting to talk to Fischer in the bar. He suddenly gets distracted by a very distinct noise: the sound of a crystal goblet crunching under-foot (I wouldn't be surprised if it was the exact same sound-byte as when Leo steps on a glass in the actual suicide scene, and was replayed when Ellen's character intruded into the basement level and stepped on the same glass). Cobb looks past Fischer and there's the broken goblet lying on the bar. The patrons all stare at him. The second instance of crossover is in the room while they're hooking up to go down to the snow level. Cobb notices the window is open and the curtains fluttering, causing a flashback. Combined with his children appearing, his subconscious is intruding on the hotel level much more than it was on the first with only the train. The third level is just Mal, but it is a more drastic intrusion than on the previous levels because of what she does. Could there have been more? Yeah. Though since he wasn't the architect, it was very limited what Cobb's subconscious could do while keeping the movie's rules consistent.
I can't really talk to your desire for more, or that you felt it was wanting in some areas... I feel similar, though I don't think to the same extent that you do. My only real issue with the post were the expectations that would actually not have made sense in the movie, due to the established rules.
A lot of what I'm seeing in the thread comes down to confusing the roles of the people attached to the dream machine. The architect of the dream is the only one who can make large structural changes, and is the one who creates the level. The "subject" populates with his/her subconscious projections, and then there are the "tourists." The tourists are the only group not really explained in what they can do, but it is explained what they can't do: the architect's job. From what was seen in the movie, a tourist seems to have limited abilities to change things about themselves, or to bring subconscious projections with them (though since Cobb is the only one who does this, it may be because of his deep mental scarring) Let's walk through the scenes to see how this plays out:
Extracting from Saito (level 1)
The architect was revealed to be the un-named guy, was blamed for not getting the carpet right, and was the target of the angry subconscious mob.
Extracting from Saito (level 2)
Since Cobb doesn't build anymore, the architect must have been Arthur. This would make sense of the part where the building starts to fall apart after Arthur wakes up (gets shot).
Shared Dreaming with Cobb (take 1)
Ellen's character is the architect. When Cobb reveals to her that it's all a dream constructed by her, Paris explodes.
Shared Dreaming with Cobb (take 2)
Ellen's character is the architect, Cobb is the subject. Ellen flips Paris on it's head and all sorts of crazy stuff. Towards the end, Cobb is shouting at her to stop because she made the bridge from a real place and he's freaking out. Notice at no point does he actually stop or change any of Ellen's changes ... even when he wants to. He can't.
Shared Dreaming with Arthur
Arthur is the architect and Ellen's character is the subject. She mentions how her subconscious is more polite than Cobbs'. Arthur creates and shows her a paradox. At no point does Ellen change anything.
Fischer's inception (level 1)
Yousef is the architect. It's raining because Yousef has to pee, and EVERYONE knows who is to blame for it. Also, it is why Yousef doesn't go deeper. He does to some extent, use his ability to change things: he makes the bollards rise on the bridge to cut him off from the pursuer, and then to make the bridge section rise. When introducing the character, he does mention that he himself doesn't really go into the dream, so I can understand that he might just be a sucky architect.
Fischer's inception (level 2)
Arthur is the architect, and is also the reason why he doesn't follow to the snow level. When the shit hits the fan, he does use his ability to change the level by inflicting paradox on the agent who followed him into the stairwell.
Fischer's inception (level 3)
Eames is the architect, and is why he stays there. Saito blames Eames for not dreaming of a beach instead of the snowscape. Eames created the shortcut through the vent for Saito and Fischer. Cobb specifically asked Ellen's character if Eames "added anything" to the level. Back up on level 2, Arthur plays music into Eames' ears, and everyone on level 3 can hear it.
Overall, I really liked the movie (as you can probably tell) ... I don't think it was perfect, but it was really good.
