Zarban wrote:fireproof78 wrote:you don't market toys for the same age group, one with giant robots, one with sexist images of female characters.
I may not be objective, but I am asking for you to offer an objective measure of the sexism in a particular media. How do you define it? I have made points that while the movie itself is not marketed towards the age range I defined, the toys, etc are! Consider: http://reelgirl.com/2012/05/avengers-sh … -minority/
But, you're right, I'm not objective. I'm just trying to address a disparity in toy marketing between boys and girls, and the cultural institutions that drive it.
You claimed that the audiences for The Avengers and comic books skew younger and more male than Transformers and are therefore more dangerous to young minds. I demonstrated that the opposite is true. .
I also claim that there is more marketing of Black Widow too, increasing influence. I also can cite research that such images are damaging to young minds. That is the foundation of my point.
Zarban wrote:The idea that the Black Widow action figure showing cleavage is somehow damaging to children's view of women (or whatever it is you're vaguely arguing) is ridiculous. Are you aware that women actually have boobs in real life? Are you aware that there is an action figure of Megan Fox from Transformers with cleavage? And one for her character in Jonah Hex WHERE SHE PLAYED A PROSTITUTE?
No, I was not aware of those action figures. Yes, I am up in arms about them…now. How would you like me to protest them?
Zarban wrote:Why aren't you up in arms about those instead? It's because you just started paying attention to this sort of thing when you saw that stupid fucking joke image of the Avengers sticking their asses out, isn't it? But you can't admit that so you rationalize why you and others have focused on The Avengers by claiming it's worse because it comes from comic books and comic books (at least the ones with busty female superheroes) are sexist. And now you say it's because the TOYS are somehow sexist, which somehow makes the movie worse than other movies that sideline women entirely or Christopher Nolan movies that make women betray men and/or kill themselves over their husbands.
Toys are sexist. I am saying that it is bad because of the younger audience and more accessible to younger viewers.
The poster may have been a joke, but it demonstrated a truth, one that Dorkman has addressed, first in the Avengers commentary, then in the thread. Its sexism because displays females in a sexualized way, while the men are not. The movie was not sexist-I never claimed that Avengers was sexist, I never said Joss wasn’t a feminist, I never said that the movie is somehow bad or that other movies have done it before. I never said Avengers was the first to do so, it won’t be the last-sexism is institutionalized within American society.
Zarban wrote:Sexism means treating people of one gender as inferior and usually refers to men treating women as not very smart and good primarily for sex, cooking, cleaning, and child-rearing. By any reasonable measure, all the Avengers movies do this less than the great majority of modern action movies. They present women who are smart, interesting, commanding, and capable. And they toys are no different.
As for under-presentation, Black Widow appears in two Avengers-related movies since 2008, will certainly appear in the next one, and may get her own film. And Agent Maria Hill doubles the action-woman count in The Avengers. Meanwhile, we haven't seen Batgirl since Batman & Robin; we haven't seen Supergirl since 1984; we haven't seen Wonder Woman since 1979; and Jonah Hex features a hooker as the female lead. Stop blaming the Avengers for something that is far more true of other properties, not to mention other kinds of toys....
Again, the movie was not my issue and it still is not. Avengers does a great job, both with Agent Hill and Romanov. I found them both to be engaging characters, not sex dolls like Megan Fox, who seems to keep coming up in this discussion.
Zarban wrote:I've looked at the question objectively, and I'm done talking about sexism in The Avengers.
I fear we are talking past each other, because if you were looking at it objectively, then you wouldn’t be swearing at me and telling me to be up in arms about other figures too. How do I redress such a problem without discussion first?
The core of my argument, all that I have tried to say is the marketing for Avengers, Black Widow specifically, is sexist. It is worse because the marketing is geared towards a younger, more impressionable audience. Yes, boobs exist in real life, though it is news to me. But, that doesn’t mean that they have to be put on display like Black Widow is marketed as.
The movie is not, I repeat not, the problem. It rather is the marketing, which represents a deeper, darker problem within American culture of sexism.
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