Topic: Magic Beans (LOST spoilers, I guess)

Let's talk about magic beans. This comes out of a discussion on Lost, but let me define this before we go there.

As defined, a magic bean is the one piece of magic that you have to accept for a story. The Force. The Sun burning out. The core of the Earth stops spinning. Robin Williams is funny.

You accept it, the story is told, and everyone's happy. If they introduce another magic bean, an argument can be made that the story falls apart.

OK, so there we go.

So what do you think of magic beans? What's your favorite magic bean? Do you think magic beans need explanation, or should they be left completely mysterious?

How does this relate to Lost? So the question is, what is the magic bean of Lost? Is there more than one? Is it OK that the magic bean was left mysterious until the end?

And what's the difference between a magic bean and a McGuffin? I'd argue that the Island was the McGuffin, and the light itself was the magic bean, but…I want to know what you think.

And I want to hear what you have to say from other stories, too. PLEASE, pull in references to other TV shows, books, movies, plays, unproduced screenplays, fanfilms you made in 7th grade. Go.

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Re: Magic Beans (LOST spoilers, I guess)

This started from a conversation we were having about Lost, and if the island can be a magic bean if nobody is quite sure what it can do for the story at any given moment. Does that make it a Wonderland scenario, or is it okay for a magic bean to never be explained in a satisfying way?

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Re: Magic Beans (LOST spoilers, I guess)

I'm too busy to make a tl, dr post at the moment, but I'll sum up with this:

The magic bean of Lost was the Island and whatever the central mystery of it was. Presumably, whatever the magic bean was, was powering all the crazy stuff happening there.

All well and good.

Until --spoilers-- the flash sideways in the last season turn out to be purgatory, an entirely different magic bean.

So, basically, the producers of Lost introduced a second magic bean in the last season and spent the finale explaining that, while leaving the Island magic bean substantially unexplained (not wholly, mind you, but substantially).

Re: Magic Beans (LOST spoilers, I guess)

I still don't know how Wonderland scenarios fit into the grand scheme of storytelling theory, admittedly.

But I think everyone's presumption was that all the crazy stuff would ultimately be traced back to one magic bean. If, for example, the island turned out to be an alien spaceship, would you be able to consistently explain everything that had come before through that avenue?

And that was the test of Lost that some felt it could pass and some felt it couldn't. That's the sentiment of, "There's no way they're going to be able to tie all that random shit together" is essentially a way of saying, "There's no way they'll be able to tie that all back to one magic bean."

5 (edited by Gregory Harbin 2010-05-25 15:34:28)

Re: Magic Beans (LOST spoilers, I guess)

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The difference is that Star Wars is basically a Wonderland fantasy movie. It's not trying to justify its starting point in our real world. It tells you that right up front with, "A long time ago in a galaxy far, far away."

On the other hand, Jack and the rest took off from Earth Los Angeles aboard an Earth 747 and flew threw Earth air and over Earth water. Maybe I could be things more had all the magic and mystery been strictly contained to the Island, but that is not the case.

Re: Magic Beans (LOST spoilers, I guess)

I think were really edging into the area where personal definitions are really the issue.

Does a "Magic Bean" really ever need to be explained. I would argue that as long as we have an idea of what it is in concept, that is enough.

If we go with the arguement that "magic" is the magic bean in Harry Potter, it's not like we need to know HOW it works, rather that it does.

The magic bean of Sixth Sense is most assuredly the fact that this kid can "See Dead People" but ... yeah it's been a while but do we really ever know why? I don't think so and that's fine.

I would argue that both Magic Beans & Mcguffins are by there nature better off unexplored.

We see vailidity to that when we get the god awe-full miteclorians (sp) in Phantom Menace, which is a blatant attempt to explain the magic bean of the Force.

(as a side note, I always rationalized that one as a causality issue, these Jedi had noticed that all the force users had a measurable amount of this micro-organism in proportion to their ability, but cause and effect were never linked, I always thought it made more sense that it just happened that there was this bitty thing that was really attracted to a property of the Force using persons physiology, or static cling, and they just gathered more around and inside them the more powerfull they were. So once again basic logic failed them, just like the thinking that "balance to the force" would mean good would win ... umm doesn't balance infer that you would be essentially stalemated with the opposition? and thats were you ended up ... so result)

Sorry got sidetracked.

Yeah so I think that we could really argue that the Island was the "magic bean" we partially tried to explain it over the season, leading largely to more questions (electromagnetism and energy pockets) and then again at the end with the cave of glowy light energy, but that resulted in the same kinds of issues as the Star Wars justification.

It just is, deal with it.

And while I personally was happy with the FlashSideways resolution of "purgatory" I can definitely see the argument that it's a second bean out of nowhere, preying on the previously established formats of flashing back and forward. I just find myself giving them this one.

And no, working on Lost in its final season isn't influencing my perspective much, I still came at pretty much each episode as puzzled as to what was going to happen as the general populace.

Well that was a nice long ranty first post.

Re: Magic Beans (LOST spoilers, I guess)

Hell yeah it was, welcome to the forum.

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These are some of the best posts I have ever seen. Teague, you were right to have faith in these people. I need to give it all some thought before my next post, so, I'll edit this in a bit if there haven't been too many posts below me.

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Re: Magic Beans (LOST spoilers, I guess)

Two things. One, Zarban super eloquently nailed it with his saying "we do have to know what magic beans do, like make a beanstalk." I agree.

Two, Jeffery just fucking owned my tight little virgin pussy with his West Wing bit. I read that aloud to my girlfriend just now, it was so awesome.

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Well, I think there's a statute of limitations. In a film series, this can even go six movies, if you're not adding huge story-changing powers to the bean in question. ("Oh, Yoda can catch and re-direct the energy from force lightning. Nifty.") On a TV show, if you spend as many seasons adding mind-bending, story-changing, hugely influential powers to the magic beans...it might not be illegal or anything, but folks are going to accuse you of making everything up as you went.

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Re: Magic Beans (LOST spoilers, I guess)

18 (edited by Gregory Harbin 2010-05-25 20:01:58)

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19 (edited by Brian 2010-05-25 21:09:57)

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22 (edited by Zarban 2010-05-27 09:44:00)

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As someone who has seen every episode of Lost, I'm not sure that it changed the rules as it went along.  It really didn't.  They were actually pretty consistent and if you rewatch older episodes, you'll see that they had plenty of plant and payoff.

The problem with Lost and specifically the finale, isn't that it changed the rules, its that it changed its focus too often.  Season 1, the island has a monster and a hatch.  Season two, it has/had a Dharma Initiative.  Season three, it had others.  By Now yes, they did establish Jacob in season 3 , and the "massive pocket of energy," in season 2.  But because the focus and emphasis changed so often, it was difficult at times as an audience to get a foothold.

If this was Flash Forward, whatever, audiences wouldn't have cared and it would have gotten canceled.  But because it had interesting characters that had a rich backstory, portrayed by solid actors, mixed with beautiful sets and cinematography and a brilliant score....we as the audience were sucked back in, again and again. 

I feel that the makers didn't betray me so much as they couldn't stick the landing.  had this season been a bit more focused, it could have been a masterpiece.  Sadly, now its going to be remembered not for the amazing 5 seasosns of tv it was, but as an unfocused bag of meh.  Its unfortunate because there is some truly GREAT tv in there.

Eddie Doty

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Re: Magic Beans (LOST spoilers, I guess)

25 (edited by Eddie 2010-05-27 10:21:26)

Re: Magic Beans (LOST spoilers, I guess)

Ive talked to a few people close to production and what I've come to understand is this.

While the fans have always been about the mystery, the Producers were far more interested in the characters.  The final image of the show, Damon Lindelof has had planned since the Pilot. 

*SPOILERS*

He knew Jack was going to die in the end sacrificing himself so the others could be safe.  His journey was that of finding purpose and redemption.   He knew what the island could do.  He knew what effects it had on people, he knew about Jacob, Smokey, all of that, from the beginning.

What was more modular, was the answer to the question, "The island is a ______."  That interested them the least as storytellers.  I'm not unsympathetic to this view.  I grew up watching a lot of Hitchcock and he was of a similar mind.  In North by Northwest, you never find out what James Mason does that made him a bad guy, you just know he is.  In Notorius you never know what that black powder is, you just know its bad.  That's how they saw the island.

Now here I have to be careful.....through circumstances I found out a bit more than I should and Ill try to give a satisfying answer to this without going to specific.

At one point, around season 4-5 they had a very definitive answer as to what the island was.  They drop hints at this throughout season 5.  As they are breaking season 6's story, they realize that where they want to take these characters, and how they want to end their story, it doesn't really match up well with this explanation of the island that they had been using internally.

I cannot be much more specific, but Ill say this.  The explanation of the island was originally much more hard sci-fi.  In the last season though you realize that with what Jacob's mother tells them, coupled with the reveal of the flash sideways, that it is much more mystical/spiritual in nature.  This is where they wanted to go, and this is why they couldn't just come out and say, "The island is  ______."  They never revealed too much in seasons 1-5, because they wanted to give themselves the freedom to change as needed.

But think about it.  Massive pocket of energy.  Electromagnetic in nature.  Time altering properties.  The smoke monster makes almost mechanical sounds.  You can draw your own conclusions.

Eddie Doty

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