I dunno...this whole deliberate thing is a hang up for me.  I believe a lot of great art is accidental.  To me its the end result that matters, not the intention.  Vasquez Rocks is a work of art to me, and that is in no way deliberate.

Agreed with Mike on all points.

You know, I can get myself locked up in all these argumentative, hypothetical "proofs" inside of this conversation and agree with basically anything.

At the end of the day, it might just be too recent.

But I don't think of video games as art. Not really. They might be, someone can make a very compelling case. The difference between the least and most artistic games seems too small, compared to the difference between something your kid drew and the Mona Lisa, for anything to be that-much-more artistic than anything else in the game world.

I'll already agree with the dissenters and say there are and can be very artistic games, yes. But I think they're more an emulation of art that has already happened. Once video games find what they're actually good for - not just simulating existing game types or filmic qualities - maybe then can games stretch their legs and become fucking art. Until then, they're just artfully created, by a lot of the same folks who make movies.

I should also go ahead and add now that, I've been thinking about it, and I can't think of a film I'd consider art, either. Beautiful, yes, tangible adjectives, naturally. Same with games. But I have trouble stretching my definition of "art" to include what's going on in the realm of cinema and gaming.

That's just me - but the more I think about it, and I'm not done thinking, the more I think art should be created by an artist, maybe two artists. Not four hundred.

Possibly. But I'd be the guy saying "guess what you fucking nerd, CoD is Goldeneye with better textures."

And once you get right down to it, Goldeneye is Asteroids in 3D.

And that's fine with me. I like all three. (Save for CoD, which I've never played.)

It's no more or less a game when you advance the technology. It's no more or less a game when you explain why you're (apparently) randomly shooting at the computer. But you play all three to shoot at the computer. Make it pretty if you want to, but I don't think the game will be an evergreen the way the Mona Lisa or Moonlight Sonata is, no matter how much I would destroy all of you in Goldeneye.