Re: True Detective
I award six internet points to Cotterpin, which can be cashed in at any participating internet location.
I have a tendency to fix your typos.
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I award six internet points to Cotterpin, which can be cashed in at any participating internet location.
The recent fiasco with bitcoin leads me to think I should cash these in quickly...
Internet points: The alternative to bitcoins, but of actual value.
Internet points probably have more regulation than bitcoin.
EDIT:
Guys, this theory makes perfect sense and it's supported by a ton of evidence. I'd put good money on this being correct.
Last edited by Doctor Submarine (2014-03-05 19:27:38)
The problem is that it felt artificial - an unnecessary information dump capped off by a dramatic reveal that really doesn't make any sense for our characters.
I still don't understand why you think the content of the scene is unnecessary. The evidence Rust obtained, and what he did to obtain it, is not relevant to the story?
Rust has explicitly said he has no respect for Marty's skills as a detective and later expresses surprise when Marty manages to pull off a complicated bit of police work. So why would bother to carefully detail all the evidence in chronological order before getting to the tape?
What does Rust's opinion of Marty's forensic acumen have to do with Marty's need to know the information? But accepting the premise, if you don't think someone is a good detective, isn't carefully walking your slow-witted buddy through the evidence in chronological order exactly what you would do? Also, Rust did a lot of legwork to get that evidence. It makes sense that he'd want Marty to know how much work he put in. He committed a B&E for goodness sake. (This is all apart from the fact that Rust probably does think Marty is a good detective. They lock horns and have exchanged harsh words in moments of anger, but there's obviously, fundamentally, a mutual respect.)
The whole thing should have been: Rust explains how he got the tape, he shows Marty the tape, Marty reacts, end scene. Save all of the rest of it for a later scene once Rust has moved everything out of the storage shed and into Marty's office. Then you can spend all the time you need connecting the dots for the audience in a time and place that makes a hell of a lot more sense.
But I thought everything besides the tape was pointless and unnecessary. If it's not, then what is the utility of having the same information conveyed in Marty's office? Didn't Rust bring Marty to the shed for the explicit purpose of showing him the evidence? How does running thru the evidence make sense in Marty's office but not make sense in Rust's shed -- where they came specifically to look at the evidence?
And oh my God, that storage shed. What the fuck was that? It looked exactly the way Gilbough and Papania would expect it to look if Rust really was an insane serial killer.
Indeed. It also looked like Rust's house when he was on the job. Same deal. Evidence on the walls, stick sculptures on the dining room table. Maggie walks in, sees it, and says "You can't live like this." She wasn't talking about his loose linoleum tiles.
But it's also completely out of character for Rust, who hasn't actually said or done anything crazy during the whole show. The fact that other characters keep saying that Rust is crazy is not the same thing as him actually being crazy. Like Marty said, his behavior during the interview was him sizing up the two detectives. He's violent and has anti-social tendencies, but the idea that he would take the time to paint that ridiculous spiral on the shed door was painfully stupid.
Come now. He's may not be clinically insane, but in colloquial terms Rust is batshit crazy. This is the most obvious fact about him. He acts crazy. Says weird-ass crazy stuff constantly. Goes rogue to get deep undercover and infiltrate the biker gang without approval from his police force bosses. Crazy. Going upside a dude's head with a toolbox just so the guy will tell him where that brothel was. Crazy. Even impulsively fucking his partner's wife. Kinda crazy. His behavior during the interview may have been calculated -- but it was also characteristic. Carving up beer cans into figurines and droning on about fourth-dimensional time being a flat circle is... exactly the sort of thing one would expect Cohle to do. Given all this crazy-ass behavior (and more), is it really that far-fetched to think this guy would draw on a storage locker door? Well of course not. (He likes to draw. His "taxman" portfolio is full of drawings of stick sculptures and such.)
What does Rust's opinion of Marty's forensic acumen have to do with Marty's need to know the information? But accepting the premise, if you don't think someone is a good detective, isn't carefully walking your slow-witted buddy through the evidence in chronological order exactly what you would do? Also, Rust did a lot of legwork to get that evidence. It makes sense that he'd want Marty to know how much work he put in. He committed a B&E for goodness sake. (This is all apart from the fact that Rust probably does think Marty is a good detective. They lock horns and have exchanged harsh words in moments of anger, but there's obviously, fundamentally, a mutual respect.)
We're not talking about Marty's need to know. We're talking about Rust's willingness to inform him. And why would Rust feel the need to impress Marty with his diligence? A B&E is probably the least of the crimes we've seen Rust commit so far. In any case, if I was in the same situation, I would definitely show him the tape first.
"Hey, you know that little girl we were never able to find? Well, it turns out this bastard I was suspicious of all along raped and murdered her. I have the evidence right here if you'd like to see it. So, would you mind helping me out with this case?"
Rust came to Marty for help because he needed access to police records and other resources, and because by shooting that guy, Marty fucked up their chances of properly solving this case back in 1995. Mutual respect has nothing to do with it.
But I thought everything besides the tape was pointless and unnecessary. If it's not, then what is the utility of having the same information conveyed in Marty's office? Didn't Rust bring Marty to the shed for the explicit purpose of showing him the evidence? How does running thru the evidence make sense in Marty's office but not make sense in Rust's shed -- where they came specifically to look at the evidence?
The point of that scene was for Marty to see the tape. That's it. The tape is the trigger that convinces Marty to help Rust. Everything else is an exposition dump that bogs us down unnecessarily. Either cut it, or save it for a later scene so that the action can get started already.
What exactly do we learn in this scene aside from the tape?
There was no physical evidence connecting Dora Lange to Ledoux's place (this is an "as you know" and it makes me wonder why it took another seven years for Rust to figure out that the case hadn't really been solved after all)..
Women and children have gone missing in the area surrounding the Tuttle-funded schools (Marty and the audience already knew that Rust suspected the schools were somehow connected to the case).
Rust believed that Tuttle's interest in the case, the formation of the task force, and his behavior in 2002 were suspicious (more information we already knew).
Rust tracked down a former student from one of the Tuttle schools who provides the first direct connection between the scarred man (Kelly Rita's third attacker) and the schools.
The Tuttles come from a part of the state were people practice strange rituals involving santeria and voudon that bear striking resemblance to Dora Lange and the Lake Charles victim.
A photographer spotted many of those little stick things which Rust takes to mean that the killer was very busy during the post-Katrina chaos (again, we already knew that the killer was still active because of the Lake Charles killing - the fact that it may have been easier to kill people after Katrina is irrelevant because he didn't seem to have much trouble killing them before that).
So the only compelling piece of new evidence is Rust's interview with Toby. Considering their conversation at the bar, and the fact that Marty pulls his gun at the thought of meeting Rust in dark room, why go through all this before reluctantly showing Marty the tape? I still don't think most of it was necessary, and this episode needed to accomplish more since we've only got one episode left. But if we were really going to have a moment where Rust walks Marty through everything, having that happen before he shows him the tape is dumb.
It also looked like Rust's house when he was on the job. Same deal. Evidence on the walls, stick sculptures on the dining room table. Maggie walks in, sees it, and says "You can't live like this." She wasn't talking about his loose linoleum tiles.
His house did not look like that storage shed. Yes, there were a few pictures on the walls and the table was messy with one of those sculptures on it. But the rest of it was bare white walls and no furniture (rather like my brother's house). He hadn't painted the place insane symbols and cryptic clues. And to me, Maggie's comment seemed to have very little to do with the state of Rust's house. She wasn't even looking at the mess when she said it. She was just trying to seduce him. He's alone, in an empty house, he's just lost his job, and seemed pathetic enough that he might jump at the chance to bone her.
Come now. He's may not be clinically insane, but in colloquial terms Rust is batshit crazy.
[snip]
Given all this crazy-ass behavior (and more), is it really that far-fetched to think this guy would draw on a storage locker door? Well of course not. (He likes to draw. His "taxman" portfolio is full of drawings of stick sculptures and such.)
Yeah, I'm willing concede that I overstated my case a bit there. Rust clearly has issues. But I still think that spiral was fucking stupid. There is in fact a world of difference between filling a notepad with small, intricately detailed sketches and painting a big ass mural on a door.
I love this forum.
I also can't wait for Sunday.
Predictions?
They wake up next to Bob Newhart's wife?
SPOILERRob wrote:What does Rust's opinion of Marty's forensic acumen have to do with Marty's need to know the information? But accepting the premise, if you don't think someone is a good detective, isn't carefully walking your slow-witted buddy through the evidence in chronological order exactly what you would do? Also, Rust did a lot of legwork to get that evidence. It makes sense that he'd want Marty to know how much work he put in. He committed a B&E for goodness sake. (This is all apart from the fact that Rust probably does think Marty is a good detective. They lock horns and have exchanged harsh words in moments of anger, but there's obviously, fundamentally, a mutual respect.)
We're not talking about Marty's need to know. We're talking about Rust's willingness to inform him. And why would Rust feel the need to impress Marty with his diligence? A B&E is probably the least of the crimes we've seen Rust commit so far. In any case, if I was in the same situation, I would definitely show him the tape first.
"Hey, you know that little girl we were never able to find? Well, it turns out this bastard I was suspicious of all along raped and murdered her. I have the evidence right here if you'd like to see it. So, would you mind helping me out with this case?"
Rust came to Marty for help because he needed access to police records and other resources, and because by shooting that guy, Marty fucked up their chances of properly solving this case back in 1995. Mutual respect has nothing to do with it.
Rob wrote:But I thought everything besides the tape was pointless and unnecessary. If it's not, then what is the utility of having the same information conveyed in Marty's office? Didn't Rust bring Marty to the shed for the explicit purpose of showing him the evidence? How does running thru the evidence make sense in Marty's office but not make sense in Rust's shed -- where they came specifically to look at the evidence?
The point of that scene was for Marty to see the tape. That's it. The tape is the trigger that convinces Marty to help Rust. Everything else is an exposition dump that bogs us down unnecessarily. Either cut it, or save it for a later scene so that the action can get started already.
What exactly do we learn in this scene aside from the tape?
There was no physical evidence connecting Dora Lange to Ledoux's place (this is an "as you know" and it makes me wonder why it took another seven years for Rust to figure out that the case hadn't really been solved after all)..
Women and children have gone missing in the area surrounding the Tuttle-funded schools (Marty and the audience already knew that Rust suspected the schools were somehow connected to the case).
Rust believed that Tuttle's interest in the case, the formation of the task force, and his behavior in 2002 were suspicious (more information we already knew).
Rust tracked down a former student from one of the Tuttle schools who provides the first direct connection between the scarred man (Kelly Rita's third attacker) and the schools.
The Tuttles come from a part of the state were people practice strange rituals involving santeria and voudon that bear striking resemblance to Dora Lange and the Lake Charles victim.
A photographer spotted many of those little stick things which Rust takes to mean that the killer was very busy during the post-Katrina chaos (again, we already knew that the killer was still active because of the Lake Charles killing - the fact that it may have been easier to kill people after Katrina is irrelevant because he didn't seem to have much trouble killing them before that).
So the only compelling piece of new evidence is Rust's interview with Toby. Considering their conversation at the bar, and the fact that Marty pulls his gun at the thought of meeting Rust in dark room, why go through all this before reluctantly showing Marty the tape? I still don't think most of it was necessary, and this episode needed to accomplish more since we've only got one episode left. But if we were really going to have a moment where Rust walks Marty through everything, having that happen before he shows him the tape is dumb.
Rob wrote:It also looked like Rust's house when he was on the job. Same deal. Evidence on the walls, stick sculptures on the dining room table. Maggie walks in, sees it, and says "You can't live like this." She wasn't talking about his loose linoleum tiles.
His house did not look like that storage shed. Yes, there were a few pictures on the walls and the table was messy with one of those sculptures on it. But the rest of it was bare white walls and no furniture (rather like my brother's house). He hadn't painted the place insane symbols and cryptic clues. And to me, Maggie's comment seemed to have very little to do with the state of Rust's house. She wasn't even looking at the mess when she said it. She was just trying to seduce him. He's alone, in an empty house, he's just lost his job, and seemed pathetic enough that he might jump at the chance to bone her.
Rob wrote:Come now. He's may not be clinically insane, but in colloquial terms Rust is batshit crazy.
[snip]
Given all this crazy-ass behavior (and more), is it really that far-fetched to think this guy would draw on a storage locker door? Well of course not. (He likes to draw. His "taxman" portfolio is full of drawings of stick sculptures and such.)
Yeah, I'm willing concede that I overstated my case a bit there. Rust clearly has issues. But I still think that spiral was fucking stupid. There is in fact a world of difference between filling a notepad with small, intricately detailed sketches and painting a big ass mural on a door.
I'm convinced. I now recognize that the scene in the storage locker is clearly pointless and poorly executed, one of the sloppiest examples of storytelling I've ever seen on TV. And you were right the first time about Cohle. He's never done or said anything crazy during the whole show. He's a perfectly normal, well-adjusted person -- certainly not the type who would draw a weird symbol on a wall (just in notebooks). I'm seeing things more clearly now.
Damn, Cotterpin is racking up the internet points this week.
Can I just step in for a second and say I didn't even pay attention to this highly-debated drawing when I watched the episode?
I'm thinking there's some overthinking involved here. Not that it's a bad thing; I love healthy debates, as long as they do stay healthy (and I sense that the current debate might need to stop here in order to be kept that way).
*reads again*
Oh, I did not sarcasm.
I'm convinced. I now recognize that the scene in the storage locker is clearly pointless and poorly executed, one of the sloppiest examples of storytelling I've ever seen on TV. And you were right the first time about Cohle. He's never done or said anything crazy during the whole show. He's a perfectly normal, well-adjusted person -- certainly not the type who would draw a weird symbol on a wall (just in notebooks). I'm seeing things more clearly now.
Hyperbole and sarcasm aren't necessary here. I'm not butthurt over the fact that you love the show and think it's perfect; I just happen to think it's decidedly less so. I really do think the show has some brilliant moments. But I've yet to get through an episode without finding something that really bothered me from a storytelling standpoint. And no amount of hand-waving by a die hard fan is going to convince me that I'm just imagining things.
Luckily, mine is by far the minority opinion, so you can enjoy the last episode and eagerly anticipate the next season without any worries.
ETA:
Can I just step in for a second and say I didn't even pay attention to this highly-debated drawing when I watched the episode?
I'm thinking there's some overthinking involved here. Not that it's a bad thing; I love healthy debates, as long as they do stay healthy (and I sense that the current debate might need to stop here in order to be kept that way).
Overthinking? Perhaps. I was just trying to say that this whole episode felt kinda meh, that scene was emblematic of the problems I had with this episode, and that drawing was emblematic of the problems I had with that scene.
Last edited by Cotterpin Doozer (2014-03-07 22:36:59)
Hyperbole and sarcasm aren't necessary here. I'm not butthurt over the fact that you love the show and think it's perfect; I just happen to think it's decidedly less so. I really do think the show has some brilliant moments. But I've yet to get through an episode without finding something that really bothered me from a storytelling standpoint. And no amount of hand-waving by a die hard fan is going to convince me that I'm just imagining things.
Aw man, why's it gotta be like that? You're the white knight, just an objective, fair-minded viewer who's calling them like you see them. Whereas I, for having the audacity to disagree about the merits of a particular scene in a particular episode, must be some sort of basement-dwelling fanboy apologist who's just looking to defend the show at every turn no matter what the topic is. It would be just as unfair for me to say "Well you're just someone who clearly hates the show -- a hater! -- and that's why you're saying what you're saying." Same thing. Even if that were true, it wouldn't invalidate your point of view. Read over our dialogue. I stuck to the substance of the points we were making. Mostly I simply asked questions. I may have engaged in sarcasm*, but I didn't characterize you personally or put you in a box labeled "hater" just because you held a different view and were willing to defend it.
* I apologize for the sarcasm. It was flippant and childish. It's a bad habit.
Aw man, why's it gotta be like that? You're the white knight, just an objective, fair-minded viewer who's calling them like you see them. Whereas I, for having the audacity to disagree about the merits of a particular scene in a particular episode, must be some sort of basement-dwelling fanboy apologist who's just looking to defend the show at every turn no matter what the topic is. It would be just as unfair for me to say "Well you're just someone who clearly hates the show -- a hater! -- and that's why you're saying what you're saying." Same thing. Even if that were true, it wouldn't invalidate your point of view. Read over our dialogue. I stuck to the substance of the points we were making. Mostly I simply asked questions. I may have engaged in sarcasm*, but I didn't characterize you personally or put you in a box labeled "hater" just because you held a different view and were willing to defend it.
* I apologize for the sarcasm. It was flippant and childish. It's a bad habit.
I'm a bit confused by this post. It seems like a rather backhanded apology.
But other than starting an argument, I'm not really sure how I'm supposed respond to a "flippant and childish" comment in a way that's not going to make me seem more objective and fair-minded in comparison. I wasn't trying to invalidate your point of view. I said you were hand-waving because rather than address my post, or even agreeing to disagree, your post was sarcastic and dismissive.
I apologized for the sarcasm in a clear declarative sentence that was free of any equivocation or weasel words whatsoever. "I apologize for my sarcasm. It was flippant and childish. It's a bad habit." Is there anyone else here who reads that as a backhanded apology? If so, please tell me how that apology could be made more explicit so I can revise it. And I meant it, too. That's the thing. I wasn't just apologizing to apologize -- I felt bad for having spoken to you that way, and a little embarrassed too. Forgive me, but I literally don't know how to apologize in a more direct way, so I'm finding myself in a no-win situation it seems.
You are also the first person in the history of the Internet to collect an apology from someone who merely deployed sarcasm. So you are racking up the points. That's like hitting a jackpot, no?
I apologized for the sarcasm in a clear declarative sentence that was free of any equivocation or weasel words whatsoever. "I apologize for my sarcasm. It was flippant and childish. It's a bad habit." Is there anyone else here who reads that as a backhanded apology? If so, please tell me how that apology could be made more explicit so I can revise it. And I meant it, too. That's the thing. I wasn't just apologizing to apologize -- I felt bad for having spoken to you that way, and a little embarrassed too. Forgive me, but I literally don't know how to apologize in a more direct way, so I'm finding myself in a no-win situation it seems.
I'm not trying to be a bitch or anything. That's kind of the problem with sarcasm and the internet. It gets really hard to tell when people are being genuine. Apology totally accepted. And my apologies if you felt I was making a dig at you for being a fan. That was not my intent at all.
And now that that's all cleared up, in about 24 hours we can start the whole thing all over again.
I'm not trying to be a bitch or anything. That's kind of the problem with sarcasm and the internet. It gets really hard to tell when people are being genuine. Apology totally accepted. And my apologies if you felt I was making a dig at you for being a fan. That was not my intent at all.
Oy. Someone please tell me if I'm crazy. Seriously. Just tell me I'm nuts, and I'll stop.
Because see now that was a backhanded apology. Apologizing in the form of a conditional statement (I'm sorry if you feel I did something I should apologize for) is not an proper apology. IOW, it's precisely what you were upset with me about. Now this is meaningless because you did absolutely nothing that would require an apology. But it's just extremely bizarre that you would call me out for an alleged backhanded apology (which clearly wasn't a backhanded apology at all), then turn around and deliver a most spectacular example of a backhanded apology. I get it: you're sorry if my silly feelings made me feel like you were taking a dig at me; it's really a shame about my misguided, silly feelings, isn't it? Breathtaking.
Proof then that irony doesn't work well on the internet, either.
You're all a bunch of suckers. This whole show is just a commercial.
You're all a bunch of suckers. This whole show is just a commercial.
Yellow King
I was thinking more of the Spaghetti Monster, but Olive Garden doesn't have a mascot.
I'm pretty sure both Rob and Cotterpin have been honestly apologizing to each other for half a page and misinterpreting each other.
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