Well, I've always thought part of the appeal of the books was that very few people are clear-cut evil, but I have thought of Melisandre as further down that spectrum. Part of it for me might be that I listened to the books on Audible, and in Clash and Storm the way Roy Dotrice voices Melisandre is very cool but very sinister.* Plus the whole demon-shadow-baby business. She is pretty much the only one who talks sense about the danger beyond the Wall, but the "spreading peace by the sword," convert-the-heathens crusade aspect to her worldview makes it hard for me to get in her corner.

*(He didn't originally do the audiobook for Feast and when he came back for Dance he didn't bother to bone up on what he'd done before and all the voices and pronunciations were completely different.)

That's the thing! I agree that burning people at the stake is probably not the best way to go, but she is really the only one concerned with a) ending the war with minimum casualties and b) THE TERRIFYING ICE ZOMBIES.  I do sympathize with those who wish to see Edric Storm and Gendry and all of the other bastards who carry king's blood live, but it seems to be the price to pay for peace. It's use a smoke Terminator to kill Renly in his tent, or waste thousands of lives and valuable land trying to kill him on the field. And if a few sacrifices can hold off the Others, are they justifiable? Does saving one child you know justify letting thousands you don't die?

In the long run, I worry about the people that become devoted to the LOL in the way Queen Selyse and her men do. I think view Stannis as someone who doesn't view himself as Azor Ahai, but is choosing embrace that myth as a means to an end. That is, he'll stop all this fire nonsense once order is restored. But if Selyse still has power during peace time, will we see more "heretics" being burned?

Last edited by Allison (2013-07-02 20:43:24)

And that's what worries me about Mel. Do we know enough about her to decide one way or another if she's evil? No. What we do know is that she's focused, ruthless, and intelligent enough to almost always get what she wants. Right now, her goals seem to be for the good of the realm. But what happens when she decides to go another way?

I'm not sure the Lord of Light is any more real than the Seven, isn't it just a darker, more powerful form of magic practiced by his followers vs one that is in transition to science? Certainly Oldtown seems to have been encouraging folks away from magic since the dragons died (with accusations that they were responsible for the death of dragons/magic in the first place). Doesn't Melisandre at one point worry about having enough of a special powder to keep up the woozoo? Which to me was a strong indication that her powers weren't so god-given.

As for Melisandre being evil, I'd say mostly, she's certainly not one of the 'good guys'. You can't go around murdering people in their sleep for any reason really, especially if that reason is 'because they're in my way'. I'm not a believer in the idea that the death of a few in place of many is justified either, since it presupposes the death of the many and absolves the party from seeking alternatives. And Melisandre is anything but compromising, which makes her particularly susceptible to the 'oh, I'll just kill him then' solution. I can't recall if that's her actual attitude towards taking all these lives, but if so, it puts her in the same camp as Tywin with his justification of the Red Wedding. After all, evil people rarely believe they're evil and think what they're doing/have done is right. It makes me wonder at what number of 'sacrificed for the greater good' Melisandre will stop at, because she doesn't seem to be slowing down. That one of the few turns out to be a child makes her cross the line even further. It's not really supported in the text, but I find her choice to be less about fulfilling a prophecy and more about testing/proving the mettle of her chosen saviour. You think she could be pushed to do something horrible? I'd say she's already done it, and with alarming frequency.

Ultimately though, I wonder what Melisandre's plan is here. To stop the ice creatures? She's arguably already got the voodoo, so what does she need to get this done, armed men? If so, then how many? I find it interesting that it's mostly Davos that makes Stannis go to the wall and start the ball really rolling. Would Melisandre have still been in the south waging war and facilitating the death of thousands up to this point had it not been for Davos' insistence? In short, I don't find that much consistency between her actions and her stated goals.

Don't remember that from the books, wonder where they're headed. If they are indeed pushing Aria leaving to be the season 4 finale, I suppose they'll need to invent something for her to do this season.

Pretty sure GRRM has confirmed that Dany being fireproof was pretty much a one time thing.

Not to mention both Viserys and Jon getting burned happen before the dragons return.

So Daario is actually a Faceless Man?  This changes everything!

Actually, I'm okay with this.  There was something about the original Daario actor that seemed "off" to me.  Can't put my finger on why, but for me he never seemed to fit into that world.  Too slick and handsome maybe?  I dunno.

Hafþór Júlíus Björnsson who is playing the Mountain posted these pictures on his facebook page.

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Last edited by AshDigital (2013-09-29 20:33:25)

Maybe their combining them with the Skagos people to simplify things for the Rickon storyline?

It's the specific use of that language that makes me wonder, though. "Left her for another woman" doesn't feel like something you say about a man who kidnapped someone. It's a phrase you use about a man who has an affair with another woman. I don't think that the show (or the books even) have had characters use similar language to describe that relationship.