If you look carefully, you will see that nowhere have I made the argument that this "isn't Star Trek."

Thank you Trey for saying what i couldn't!! That was absolutely beautiful.

And Brian, you may not have typed it, but I could have sworn it at least a couple times during the commentary...although I'd have to listen to it again to check.

I don't like this Trek because it's stupid. That's not to say that I think Trek hasn't been tremendously stupid at times throughout its history, both in TNG and the original series (and elsewhere).

But Trek, at its best, is both smart AND fun (including the original series).

My problem with this movie is the same as my problem with Transformers 2 and 2012 - there's a movie ABOUT something in there that's ALSO a "ride." The two are not mutually exclusive. I just happen to be more invested in Star Trek than Transformers or 2012.

Me being a fanboy has nothing to do with the nature of my criticism of this movie. It merely increases the depth of the same feelings engendered by its brethren - namely 2012, Transformers, and all the rest.

Bear in mind this movie introduced like forty new characters to us in addition to having Nero in it.

Just saying, I loved this, didn't really like the episodes of TNG you hand picked for me, and I'm waiting for a sequel to knock it out of the park or bunt to first.

I said show me a good one, and you showed me two: one where Data has a twin and there's a scientist played by Spiner as well, and one where Data was in space-court for robot rights.

Brian, thank you for being in that room. Represent. I happen to think this film was shades of The Phantom Menace ten years later, and I feel ironically like Simon Pegg telling Jar Jar fans that they're watching "a jumped-up fireworks display of a toy advert."

Star Trek was created to be the opposite of Flash Gordon, which is specifically why they chose not to have rocket exhaust come out the back of the ship. It was an attempt to bring hard sci-fi to prime time television, stories that probed the limits of what science could imagine while simultaneously being metaphors about our own world. It was a show about exploring the frontiers of space, of our knowledge and of our beliefs, and if that didn't fill the seats, there were usually hot girls in loose outfits that needed rescuing.

The three main characters represented different basic viewpoints, so each situation would challenge at least one of those. They'd make fun of that guy the whole time, so at the end he could get one good one in before the credits.

Here, nobody seems to believe anything. We have a villain who's irredeemably bad for reasons they had to come up with in post, a story that seemed to have no point except to set up a franchise and a series of action scenes for the mere sake of action. "Nothing's blown up for a few minutes. Let's have Scotty get stuck in some tubes or people are gonna fall asleep." Where were the oompa loompas in that scene?

I heard there used to be an edict from Roddenberry in the writers room, that the Enterprise would never succeed by sheer strength or violence. Kirk ran around punching guys all the time, but in the end, he saved the day by understanding something about his adversary, or by learning the rules of the situation and figuring out how to manipulate them to the best result. When he fought the Gorn on Vasquez rocks and built a cannon out of bamboo, that wasn't the victory of the story. He could have killed the Gorn captain, but he didn't. He overcame his violent instincts, impressing the god-like race that had forced them to fight for some reason… Whatever. Say what you want about that cheesiness, but old Star Trek seemed to be about something.

This movie hired the guys who had two movies to explain what the evil transformers were even mad about, and they never even tried.

True, with the hundreds if not thousands of writers who've worked on the franchise over the years, the continuity has gotten so complicated, they should have thrown all that out, but the whole alternate timeline thing is like asking for fanboys to find the inconstancies. They should have started over like Battlestar Galactica, not some bizarre "crisis of infinite Earths" that makes things even more confusing than they were before.

The original concept is simple. Every week, Kirk gave it to us in about 45 seconds. They should have cast new actors in the parts, put them in the Enterprise deep in space and given them compelling conflict to resolve in ways that reveal and develop character. For bonus points, they might uphold ANY philosophical ideals. Once they have that, with all their money, they could still include all the striking visuals they had here and have ILM throw in a bunch of explosions to bring in that Transformers bank. There's your appealing to both demographics.

Hey, I brought it up then and it works for me now - "It did happen, I saw it happen" got me over Nero's motivation and back into the movie.

Good post.

But he can prevent it. He has the tool to prevent it - the red matter. Spock only failed to deliver that tool because he ran out of time - something which Nero now has an abundance of. He could easily go back to Romulus and fix it. Of course, that's neglecting the fact that turning a planet's sun into a black hole is still basically fucking that planet over good and hard. But NOOO, let's not yell at this Trek for fucking up basic science in such a cringe worthy way. That would be far too nerdy. And nerdy isn't cool. And we have to make sure the jocks like us.

Had there been a scene where he talks out his rationale, yes, it would've been better. It still wouldn't have been great per se, since it still doesn't make much sense. But at least that would've demonstrated some awareness on the part of the filmmakers.

But if that's the way we're looking at it, then when Spock shows up, Nero should be ecstatic. Not only does Spock bring the means to save his world, he also likely has the ability to get Nero and company back to the future. The movie basically says that Nero has a full on meltdown, resulting in his deranged obsession with hurting Spock. A deranged obsession that doesn't have Nero kill Spock when he has the chance. Or take any steps towards preventing the disaster he is now capable of preventing. But a derangement that is not so bad that he can't orchestrate some stunning scheme to destroy the Federation. Or bust out of a Klingon prison. Or lead a ship and crew at all without having a mutiny.

But he's deranged. Alright. You like your villains crazy, that's fine. Personally, I prefer my villains crazy smart.

Wait, you showed Fig DATALORE? Seriously? Ugh.

And Measure Of A Man? Geeze.

Unnecessary, too. I get that the goal of the film was to end with Kirk as captain, but that point could've been dropped with no other changes to the story at all.

On the other hand, "And then he rose through the ranks for ten years" seems a bit anticlimactic.