That reminds me of when we used to joke about doing a short film that was literally nothing happening, like just someone sitting at a table for 5 minutes eating cereal, then credits.

People do that.

Doesn't make great cinema.

...unless you're Alan Rickman.

Hah! So true.

I find this to be a shallow misinterpretation of the film and the main character. I would explain but I only came here in the first place because the thread for BRAVE is currently active with talk of Twilight, and I wanted to throw in my two cents but in the appropriate thread. Basically, I agree with the following:

It's the Nostalgia Critic, what did you expect?

Completely off-topic, it saddens me that his style of "criticism" has become so ubiquitous online. There's so much great film criticism out there that's actually insightful and intelligent, but most people prefer the opinions of shrieking morons on Youtube. There's probably an enormous group of burgeoning movie buffs who look at people like him for guidance in their "film education." I got depressed just typing that.

I guess just that stuff like that not be shared or admired. Actually, I was not familiar with him before this, so I had no idea what I was walking into. Meh, now I know better, I suppose.

Ah, well, I'm glad that's what stuck out to you as that was exactly my point. For me symbolism outweighs prose. We are free to agree to disagree at this point, I guess.

I see what you mean and that's probably true for a lot of epic romances, but girls were pretty swoony over him when Harry Potter and the Goblet of Fire came out, so in this case I think there's more to the fangirling than just the Edward name.

Just be aware he was recently implicated in a sex scandal and his videos about Twilight are now looked down on by a lot of former fans. So view/share with caution.

Don't bother if you don't want to. I realized that video was triggering enough for me that I need to bow out of this conversation. Thanks, ya'll, though. It's been ... uh, quite a thing, hasn't it.

     Wow. That article was a horrible generalization and an insult to everyone, both men and women who does or doesn't like Twilight and does or doesn't like Star Wars. Seriously, almost everything about that was such a didactic dismissal of how a lot of people actually feel about the subject matter. Listen, it's true there are people (notice how I said people, not men or women) who are predisposed to hate something without giving it a chance but to imply that one is the authority on why an entire society of others do or do not like something is extremely rude and narrow-minded.

     It's particularly sanctimonious to say that anyone who doesn't like Twilight and feels compelled to boo at the latest trailer, is doing so because they've either never read or seen it and are just seduced by the mob mentality, too stupid to think for themselves or they don't like Twilight because they're all terrible people with a sexist bent against entertainment made by and for women. Everyone. Every single, solitary person who hates this one thing, especially if they have a Y chromosome, is secretly resentful towards or afraid of the opposite sex....or something.

     It's all so absurdly presumptuous, it's almost impossible to take seriously. Additionally, to compare Twilight to Star Wars makes little sense and doesn't really do Twilight any favors. Now, I'm not the biggest Star Wars fan. In fact, while there are specific aspects from the franchise I enjoy, The Empire Strikes Back is the only film I really like. The rest of it, I can take or leave. Empire is the one I'll watch all the way through, of my own accord.

     However, the fundamental difference between Twilight and Star Wars, and why the comparison falls apart, is that while both stories feature impossible romance, epic battles that transcend generations, silly costumes and growing up super-powered, Star Wars is widely considered to be the good example of those things. The author and her article seem to believe that all entertainment is created equal and that it's all on the same level of lame, so we should either like all of it, or hate all of it across the board.

     This is not how the real world works. This is not how Human Beings operate. If I bake a cake with pink frosting and Teague bakes a cake with pink frosting, using the same ingredients, the 10 same people we give our cakes to are going to have different, individual reactions to each cake. The majority of them may even prefer Teague's cake over mine and it's childish of me to to say, "Come on. They both taste the same and they both have pink frosting. If you like his cake, you should like mine just as much." Also ridiculous, is if were to say, "You guys just don't like my cake because I'm shorter and less attractive than Teague, that's all. That's the only reason. That, and nothing else."

     Incorrect. The bulk of the video is excerpted from Doug's Top 11 Dumbasses In Distress video. I've taken the liberty of transcribing the video so you can see in clean, plain text that is not what happens, or even what he's saying, really. I've also included the full list of names, for context and reference. Exhibit A:

     "And the absolute, biggest dumbass in distress is... Bella, from Twilight. This has to be the most selfish, Male-dependent, uncaring, manipulative, self-centered, pretentious, idiotic, whining little Bitch-bag you will ever see in your entire life! And honestly, that wouldn't be too bad a character. That'd be very, very interesting, if it was intentional! But it's not. Bella is supposed to represent the everyday, teenage girl. If that's the case, then the story really got mixed up who the bloodsucking monster is! She thinks she's tortured even though really, she has no problems. She gets a crush on a boy and decides she wants to marry him, even though she's not even out of high school yet. She wants to be turned into a vampire, which everyone has said is throwing her life away but of course, at the enlightening age of seventeen, she already knows exactly what she wants. Aren't you glad you follow through with every bright idea you had at seventeen? Aren't you glad that you totally committed to something that you knew you could never make a mistake on at that age? Oh yeah! Seventeen, nobody ever fucks up at that age! The boyfriend tries to leave her so that he can save her but she constantly keeps throwing herself off cliffs and putting herself in danger, just so he can notice her. Good. Fucking. God. That's right, girls. If your boyfriend leaves you, do exactly this. I assure you, it won't backfire in the least. Sure, you might be dead but that'll teach him! She then gets another boy involved, who actually seems supportive and attentive but she dumps him because the other guy looks at her weird. And by God, how can she turn down a guy with no personality that just looks at her weird? Again, one of those brilliant choices you make at seventeen. So now, a whole war is going on, all because of her and everyone is going out of their way to try and protect her and she's simply like, 'Yeah, that's cool'. Oh wait, she does try to say once that she's not worth it but that only lasts a few seconds. She then realizes she is worth it and is totally on board with having muscle boys carry her around everywhere. And just as her boyfriend finally agrees to marry her (imagine, a boy being pressured into marriage), she dicks around with the other guy, yet again! Oh my God. I mean Oh. My. God. I have never seen a character more needy and more insecure. She's such a dumbass in distress, that it's actually kind of scary. She is a scary character. In another dimension, maybe she could have been a great Shakespeare villain. This really complex, developed psychotic mind. But as the common, everyday relatable girl that we're all supposed to identify with? She is, and always shall be the biggest dumbass in distress."

     The marriage subplot is brought up only briefly and it's done to illustrate a larger point, which is what the bulk of the video is actually about. Doug isn't arguing that Bella is dumb for wanting to marry Edward. His issue with this is that Bella is too young and immature to rush into such an adult commitment and responsibility. Her priorities are out of balance and she's being very selfish. Not to mention, for someone who wants nothing more than to be married to Edward, she doesn't even crack a smile at her own damn wedding (or hardly ever, for that matter).

     Edward is a vampire. He's got all the time in the world. There's no reason Bella can't finish school, maybe go to college and settle into a stable career and then get married. She's seventeen, she's not even at the age of consent in most states. It's also important to consider that not only does she not know Edward very well (he's lived several lifetimes and had a million experiences before her), it's typically not a very good idea to marry your high school sweetheart. Very rarely does that work out. One of the reasons is because at seventeen, Bella is still growing as a person and figuring out who she is and who she wants to be. She may really only wish to define herself as "Edward's Wife" but that's pretty damn sad and not a strong character or a good role model for young girls, but I'm getting ahead of myself.

     No, most of the video is about how Bella Swan is brimming with poor, negative character traits and how she makes bad life choices because of some boy (who quite frankly, doesn't treat her with respect and does and says things that in real life, would and should result in a restraining order) and yet, she's meant to be a cipher for the impressionable girls in the audience and sometimes, is meant to even represent them. Bella has little to no agency in any given scene. Most of the time, she stands around while others (mostly men) decide what to do with/to her, all while objectifying her as this precious MacGuffin to be fought over.

     And why, exactly do people fight over her? Is it because she's a deep, exceptional person who is kind and courteous to others, well-mannered, intelligent and empathetic? Nope! At least in the first film, Edward is drawn to her physical appearance, the alluring mystery of her "newness" and because she's a virgin, with virgin blood coursing through her veins. Hell, that right there is the only thing most of the vampires care about, too. So, basically, Bella rates about as special as a limited edition, soft drink flavor and about as important as a collector's edition blu-ray, with exclusive box art and packaging. Our protagonist, ladies and gentlemen.

     Not quite. Doug explicitly states that he confused the marriage subplot with the other subplot of Bella's desire to become a vampire. He also says that ultimately, it's irrelevant who said what because neither subplot is a good idea and how the two characters talk about and then execute them makes both Bella and Edward look bad.

     The correction in the last minute or so of the video is taken from Doug's Top 11 Nostalgia Critic Fuck Ups. Exhibit B:

"Bella didn't want to marry Edward in Twilight, you war whore!" (at least, that's what I think I heard)

     "Yes, when I put Bella in my Top 11 Dumbasses In Distress, I brought up that, among her other faults, she was pressuring Edward into marriage. Actually, I got it the other way around. It was Edward that was pressuring her into marriage because really, Ladies? Isn't that a common problem? Men pressuring you into marriage? God, we're just so obsessed with commitment! I guess I got confused by the fact that she was pleading him to turn her into a vampire, which from the sounds of it is a much bigger and even dangerous commitment. So, I figured marriage, after asking that wouldn't be such a big deal, but nope! Apparently, living her life as a bloodsucking beast of the night for the rest of her life, she's absolutely sure about. But being legally bound together, that's obviously the much bigger issue that takes a lot more time. And don't get me wrong, it is a big issue and it does take time but she just hears the word vampire and she's like, 'I'm in! I'm in!' Oh well, whoever's idea it was, it still makes both of them look like jackasses but still, fess up when you mess up. It was Edward who wanted to get married, not Bella. I guess that means we can like her now, right?"

TOP 11 DUMBASSES IN DISTRESS
11. Mary Jane Watson (Spider-Man)
10. Kayley (Quest For Camelot)
09. Willie and Short Round (Indiana Jones and The Temple of Doom)
08. Robin (Bat-Man)
07. Inspector Gadget (Inspector Gadget)
06. Lois Lane (Superman)
05. Jubilee (X-Men)
04. Scrappy-Doo (Scooby-Doo)
03. Jar-Jar Binks (Star Wars)
02. Princess Peach (Super Mario Bros.)
01. Bella Swan (Twilight)

     As I previously stated, Transformers 2 was massively popular, that doesn't mean it's relatable. Success does not equal quality. Correlation does not equal causation. The best way to approach Doug's material is with the understanding that he is a comedian, first and a film critic, second. At least, that's how I tend to look at it. Much of what he says, he over exaggerates and yes, even yells for comedic effect. It's just his shtick. Often, he'll use certain words in a certain way because it has the potential to sound silly. For example, I don't exactly know what a bitch-bag is or why he called himself a war whore but I do recognize it as humor of the absurd.

     I'm not sure how you came to that first conclusion but I think you're missing out on something crucial. If Doug hates the character of Bella and the plot and/or story never goes in a direction to change that, then it stands to reason Doug hates the character despite the story, which he probably also hates. They can be mutually exclusive issues within a film. So no, the story may not be the reason why one hates a character but rather, the character may be why one hates the character. In addition, a good or bad character can sometimes exist within a contradictory, good or bad story and vice versa.

     That is a wildly absurd leap in logic to make, based solely on something like this. For starters, it wasn't several times. Doug refers to Bella as a bitch only once. Second, when not referencing the title of the video, he also refers to Bella, in the context of the video as a dumbass only once. Third, neither of these terms have anything to do with gender, as both men and women can sometimes be qualified as a bitch or a dumbass. Fourth, why is it you didn't say anything about the myriad of other descriptors he used, such as selfish, uncaring and manipulative? At one point, he implies that both Bella and Edward are being jackasses. Does this mean Doug has a problem hating men? What about Dorkman? Early in the Twilight commentary, he uses the word cunt, in relation to Bella. Finally, Bella is one person, not every woman ever, no matter how much the film makers keep insisting her to be. To top it off, she's a fictional character. Calling her names doesn't say much of anything about the misogyny or misandry of real life men and women, respectively.

     That depends greatly on one's reasons as to why they dislike Twilight. If they dislike it for the sole reason of it featuring a female lead because they don't want their protagonists to be women, then yes, that is a concerning issue that might need further discussion. However, keep in mind that it wouldn't be just Twilight getting booed at. Buffy the Vampire Slayer, Aliens, Kill Bill, The Hunger Games, The Color Purple, The Help, Easy A, Hanna. I've yet to see a mob of people collectively boo at advertisements for these stories and characters. Here's a radical thought: What if one dislikes Twilight because they feel the film itself is disrespecting women?

     No, disliking Twilight does not necessarily, automatically equal respecting women....but neither does liking Twilight.

"Please understand, Ladies, it's not just you. Some of us [N-word]'s are Bitches, too." - Ice-T

Not relatable to you maybe. But those movies are massively successful. Clearly people see something in them and have found something in them to latch onto. Just because you don't like them doesn't invalidate the opinions of the millions of people who do.

Which brings us back to Twilight.

That was not my point and for the record, I actually like the first Transformers film. I am well aware that many people love those movies, for many different reasons. Some love it because they can relate to it, which is great. I'm glad someone can actually connect/identify with such a thing, even though it makes me scratch my head as to how that's possible. People also love things for other reasons, besides being able to relate to it.

I kind of like David Lynch's Lost Highway. That doesn't mean I relate to it in any way, or that I even think it's a good movie.

Last edited by johnpavlich (2014-06-20 16:58:33)

I don't feel that one selection completely invalidates anything else Doug says. It's just personal preference and for the record, I also like Short Round.