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Re: A Breaking Bad Conversation Thread w/ *SPOILERS* Up the Wazoo

A friend of mine made a similar point—that Walt's DVD confession/attempt to implicate Hank in a mutually assured destruction-type scenario arguably limits Walt's options more than Hank's. It was a total hail-mary pass, one with which Walt has maybe bought himself a little time. But he's also locked himself into a very specific account of the events before anyone has even formally charged him with anything. This is less than ideal if your Walt's lawyer.

Moreover, Hank would not have a crazy-difficult time establishing his innocence—though doing so won't be pleasant. Outside a courtroom Hank could submit to a lie detector test to boost his credibility with the investigators. Couple that with the fact that the only person claiming Hank is a meth mastermind will be Walt (the defendant) and the fact that there's scant evidence, that other witnesses (like Jesse) could contradict Walt's story, and that it just looks like a craven attempt to implicate your brother-in-law who is a DEA agent just as the walls are closing in on you. ...But it has bought Walt a little time, it seems. Time enough to grow a beard and get out of Dodge?

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Re: A Breaking Bad Conversation Thread w/ *SPOILERS* Up the Wazoo

If DEA internal-affairs were investigating Walt's confessional video, they might have some circumstantial evidence to support it:
(1) Hank's recovery was paid for by Walt
(2) Hank's neglecting his DEA duties and has already been reprimanded for this
(3) Hank declined a promotion to remain in New Mexico
(4) Hank was targeted by a rival cartel
(5) Witnesses can testify that Walt was in Hank's office, and Hank closed the blinds twice
(6) Walt and Hank were driving around together to the Chicken Place while Hank was in the final stages of recovery

None of these are strong, but enough for the show's writers to make something of them if they chose to go down that route.

not long to go now...

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Re: A Breaking Bad Conversation Thread w/ *SPOILERS* Up the Wazoo

avatar wrote:

If DEA internal-affairs were investigating Walt's confessional video, they might have some circumstantial evidence to support it:
(1) Hank's recovery was paid for by Walt
(2) Hank's neglecting his DEA duties and has already been reprimanded for this
(3) Hank declined a promotion to remain in New Mexico
(4) Hank was targeted by a rival cartel
(5) Witnesses can testify that Walt was in Hank's office, and Hank closed the blinds twice
(6) Walt and Hank were driving around together to the Chicken Place while Hank was in the final stages of recovery

None of these are strong, but enough for the show's writers to make something of them if they chose to go down that route.

Now you guys have got me re-thinking how things could play out. On the one hand, there's not a smoking gun implicating Hank (but the money & the fact that they just happen to be brothers-in-law might seem particularly suspicious). On the other hand, people sometimes do get put away for serious crimes with the case based mostly, or even entirely, on circumstantial evidence. So now I have no clue. But we do know that the longer Hank takes trying to nail Walt on the down-low, the more he has to explain later on. And anything can happen in the interim.

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Re: A Breaking Bad Conversation Thread w/ *SPOILERS* Up the Wazoo

Even without all the circumstantial evidence and red herrings, Hank's gonna have to deal with the question "How could your own brother-in-law be a drug kingpin and you never knew it?" That alone is a career-killer.  Even if he's officially cleared of actual wrongdoing - and that's going to be a laborious, embarrassing process - he still ends up looking incompetent at best.

So now that he does know and still isn't telling anyone, the longer this goes on, the worse this gets.   He absolutely has to nail Walt now, and he's going to become more and more desperate until he does.

Re: A Breaking Bad Conversation Thread w/ *SPOILERS* Up the Wazoo

I just want to say that Aaron Paul is an amazing actor (so are many actors in the show, granted). Jesse looks awfully empty in these last few episodes. Such dead eyes.

Sébastien Fraud
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Re: A Breaking Bad Conversation Thread w/ *SPOILERS* Up the Wazoo

Yeah, Paul and I were talking about how he has gotten so much better as an actor just over this show.

Not that he was bad at first or anything, but some of the shit he's had to pull off in the last season I don't think he'd have managed to nail in the first season.

Teague Chrystie

I have a tendency to fix your typos.

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Re: A Breaking Bad Conversation Thread w/ *SPOILERS* Up the Wazoo

Saniss wrote:

I just want to say that Aaron Paul is an amazing actor (so are many actors in the show, granted). Jesse looks awfully empty in these last few episodes. Such dead eyes.

Agree. He's astonishingly good with what he's given. Deserves his Emmys. I wish his character wasn't somewhat let down by the writers - becoming mostly directionless in the last season or two - no real motivation for anything, interspersed with random indignant rage.

If Jesse had a goal he was striving towards (e.g. starting a family, entering college, beginning a business, going legit) then it'd be easier to root for him, despite the bad things he's done. It reminds me of a discussion we had here about Prometheus i.e. the Charlie Holloway character didn't care about anything and moped around, so the audience loses sympathy.

not long to go now...

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Re: A Breaking Bad Conversation Thread w/ *SPOILERS* Up the Wazoo

I don't think his character was let down by the writers. In the past few seasons, he's mostly been a way to show us what Walt has become (I think the times I hate him the most is when he so obnoxiously lies to Jesse). But I really believe they have something great in store for him (as hinted last episode) and he'll have a good payoff.

Sébastien Fraud
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Re: A Breaking Bad Conversation Thread w/ *SPOILERS* Up the Wazoo

avatar wrote:

I wish his character wasn't somewhat let down by the writers - becoming mostly directionless in the last season or two - no real motivation for anything, interspersed with random indignant rage.

If Jesse had a goal he was striving towards (e.g. starting a family, entering college, beginning a business, going legit) then it'd be easier to root for him, despite the bad things he's done.

As someone who's known and grew up with guys like Jesse, the idea that he would have a goal -- such as the examples presented -- would make zero sense.

Whether that makes a viewer more and less likely to "root" for him doesn't matter. That's not who Jesse Pinkman is as a person/character. So writing him that way, and sticking with who he is, is the ultimate service to a character. The real letdown would be if the writers shoehorned something contrary to what someone like Jesse would realistically want/do just to make the viewing experience more "standard" in terms of having less ambiguous good guys and bad guys.

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Re: A Breaking Bad Conversation Thread w/ *SPOILERS* Up the Wazoo

BBQ wrote:
avatar wrote:

I wish his character wasn't somewhat let down by the writers - becoming mostly directionless in the last season or two - no real motivation for anything, interspersed with random indignant rage.

If Jesse had a goal he was striving towards (e.g. starting a family, entering college, beginning a business, going legit) then it'd be easier to root for him, despite the bad things he's done.

As someone who's known and grew up with guys like Jesse, the idea that he would have a goal -- such as the examples presented -- would make zero sense.

Whether that makes a viewer more and less likely to "root" for him doesn't matter. That's not who Jesse Pinkman is as a person/character. So writing him that way, and sticking with who he is, is the ultimate service to a character. The real letdown would be if the writers shoehorned something contrary to what someone like Jesse would realistically want/do just to make the viewing experience more "standard" in terms of having less ambiguous good guys and bad guys.

Fair enough - doesn't have to be 'normal conventional society goals', but give him some direction. Anything. Just seeing him catatonic or talking bollocks with his deadshit friends (he's clearly brighter) or throwing his money away... I dunno... seems like a lost soul. Here's some more examples... the quest to become accepted by his parents (that subplot went nowhere), make enough dough to impress some chick (Great Gatsby plot), run his own competing meth lab that's even better than Walt's by first enrolling in a chemistry degree (Good Will Hunting plot), fresh start to get out of shitsville...

I'm not saying he has to succeed in any of these goals. There's more drama if he fails. But at least have some rudder. In any case, such a passive (& often idiotic) character would have become unsympathetic long ago in less capable hands, but Aaron Paul is knocking it out of the park.

not long to go now...

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Re: A Breaking Bad Conversation Thread w/ *SPOILERS* Up the Wazoo

avatar wrote:

Fair enough - doesn't have to be 'normal conventional society goals', but give him some direction. Anything. Just seeing him catatonic or talking bollocks with his deadshit friends (he's clearly brighter) or throwing his money away... I dunno... seems like a lost soul.

Maybe that's sort of what they are going for?

More than that, I'm not sure why everyone is so stuck on "catatonic Jesse". I mean, he was like that for what, maybe 2-3 episodes ("Blood Money" through "Confessions")? At least one of which we barely even saw him on screen? I feel like the mid-season break really screwed with people's heads, because most seem to act like Jesse has been like this for months on end, where in reality it's been a relatively short time on the show. But since it was the majority of what we saw once they got back from the mid-season break, everyone feels like he's been there forever.

avatar wrote:

Here's some more examples... the quest to become accepted by his parents (that subplot went nowhere)

That subplot didn't go "nowhere" -- he tried and failed. He bought the house as a final "fuck you" to break off any contact with them. I mean, it wasn't the most developed plot line in the world, but it had an arc, completed it, and was used to help reinforce why he's been so loyal to Walt as a father figure who actually respects him (at least until recently).

avatar wrote:

make enough dough to impress some chick (Great Gatsby plot)

Other than Walter, is there anyone that Jesse has shown express interest in impressing? Even the girls he's been with, he's never seemed to flaunt or show off. That's not who he is.

avatar wrote:

run his own competing meth lab that's even better than Walt's by first enrolling in a chemistry degree (Good Will Hunting plot)

I'm not sure it was ever spelled out, but I'm pretty sure that Jesse is a high school drop out. Walter noted that he flunked him in Chemistry, and I don't remember them ever saying he retook it to get a passing grade. So even ignoring the fact that Jesse has never really shown the type of ambition that would be required to go this route, practically it seems pretty far fetched.

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Re: A Breaking Bad Conversation Thread w/ *SPOILERS* Up the Wazoo

Jesse IS a lost soul, pretty much has been since Jane's death.  I see that as the main reason he keeps trying to get rid of the money and get himself into trouble - he's punishing himself.   More and more, it's been Walt who thwarts Jesse's attempts to destroy himself because that would likely also expose Walt.

One key piece of info Jesse still doesn't have - Walt watched Jane die when he might have saved her.  I dunno if Jesse will ever find that out... but it's for damn sure if he does, that's gonna trigger the Apocalypse.

Re: A Breaking Bad Conversation Thread w/ *SPOILERS* Up the Wazoo

I've thought about that, but I don't see how Jesse could possibly find out, unless Walt rubbed it in his face. I think it's never meant to be more than a way at that time to show us what Walt was becoming.

Sébastien Fraud
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Re: A Breaking Bad Conversation Thread w/ *SPOILERS* Up the Wazoo

There was a scene a few episodes back where that night came up - I think it was when Walt was talking about the irony of meeting Jane's dad in the bar - and I thought Walt might slip and say the wrong thing and Jesse would figure it out.   It's still a possibility, I think.

The other option, like you say, is that Walt just tells Jesse about it for some reason - maybe in a moment of anger or to rattle him, who knows.

I'm not completely sure they'll do anything with it, but it's a pretty big bomb to leave unexploded.  smile

Re: A Breaking Bad Conversation Thread w/ *SPOILERS* Up the Wazoo

Trey wrote:

There was a scene a few episodes back where that night came up - I think it was when Walt was talking about the irony of meeting Jane's dad in the bar - and I thought Walt might slip and say the wrong thing and Jesse would figure it out.   It's still a possibility, I think.

The other option, like you say, is that Walt just tells Jesse about it for some reason - maybe in a moment of anger or to rattle him, who knows.

I'm not completely sure they'll do anything with it, but it's a pretty big bomb to leave unexploded.  smile

And it's the LAST bomb, remember. Jesse's figured out pretty much everything else Walt did. He has no way of knowing that he was there the night Jane died, though. There's no way it doesn't come out when they go head-to-head (probably next episode).

"The Doctor is Submarining through our brains." --Teague

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Re: A Breaking Bad Conversation Thread w/ *SPOILERS* Up the Wazoo

avatar wrote:

It reminds me of a discussion we had here about Prometheus i.e. the Charlie Holloway character didn't care about anything and moped around, so the audience loses sympathy.

How great would it have been to have Jesse Pinkman onboard the Prometheus? Hey yo, what's say we don't try to pet the serpentine creature that's clearly making a threat display, and instead we turn around and leave this bitch?

When considering Jesse's aimlessness, erratic behavior, and ability to hang out with moronic dipshits who he's clearly smarter than*, it's worth remembering that he's an addict. I've always thought the writers have been fairly savvy when it comes to this aspect of the character. A lot of the stuff Jesse's done, like a lot of the facts about how his life has gone, sometimes make a little more sense when you remind yourself that he's had full-blown addict software running on his brain for years. Add that to the relentlessly stressful and dangerous life he's lead, and you realize he was probably way overdue for a nervous breakdown in which he tries to torch someone's house. (Throwing lots of money out of your car is, I admit, not typical druggie behavior...)

* Dave Chappelle used to have a joke about how, when you do drugs, you end up hanging out with certain people, and often the only thing you have in common with them is drugs. He does this whole bit about how he'd be sitting there with a bunch of klansmen, passing a joint around, politely asking them if they could please stop all the name-calling.

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Re: A Breaking Bad Conversation Thread w/ *SPOILERS* Up the Wazoo

Dear lord...how about that shit?

Several major things happened -- but we all know the only thing that matters is the end. Un-fucking-believable. I want to re-watch it a few times before diving into the nuances...but I simply can't refrain from posting SOMETHING.

The tension created from 2 different non-twists (Hank/Jesse's trick & Todd's arrival) just show how much you can get sucked into this world. Once the ball was set in motion, you knew exactly what was going to happen -- but it didn't matter. It still grabbed you by the short hairs and didn't let go.

I was literally off my couch and pacing after Walt got that picture text until the commercial break.

Also, while I normally don't find myself "rooting" for anyone in particular (I just enjoy the universe and the story -- I don't need a clear cut hero/villain in this show)...I found myself really hoping Hank gets himself out of this. I have no idea how he could, because damn, but the entire lead up I felt myself going "shit, no way, this can't be it, no way, go go go); flying right in the face of my normal "outcome apathy".

Ugh. Gotta re-watch it.

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Re: A Breaking Bad Conversation Thread w/ *SPOILERS* Up the Wazoo

As a quick follow-up...since the start of the 2nd-half of the final season I've been saying that the "flash forwards" would be caught up to with 2 episodes left. His return would be the 2nd to last episode, setting the stage for the climax and epilogue in the final episode of the series.

After this episode, it seems even more likely to me.

Next week's episode is titled "Ozymandius"...which if you do a quick Wiki-search on the famous poem, the first sentence in the Analysis section is this: "The central theme of Ozymandias is the inevitable decline of all leaders, and of the empires they build, however mighty in their own time."

I'm guessing that whatever the outcome of the shootout is, this next episode will be Walter's true fall from grace. Considering he was sitting in handcuffs and humiliated by Hank in this one...I can only imagine how far he's going to fall next week.

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Re: A Breaking Bad Conversation Thread w/ *SPOILERS* Up the Wazoo

BBQ wrote:

do a quick Wiki-search

Or saw this trailer:

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Re: A Breaking Bad Conversation Thread w/ *SPOILERS* Up the Wazoo

"You're the math whiz. Add two-plus-two."

Is there any way in hell Hank and Gomez walk away from that showdown? They're literally out-gunned. From a trying-to-read-the-writers'-moves standpoint, it would make Hank's final phone call with Marie all the more tragic. That celebratory phone call also allows Marie to know that Walt was present—albeit in handcuffs—when Hank died and/or "went missing." But who says that's going to happen. The reservation police might show up next for all we know. Hell, a spectral Mike Ehrmantrout might show up as a Jedi ghost to tell everyone that Walt's only guilty "from a particular point of view." This show loves its surprises.

Again, Walt's desperation and stress levels seem to have dampened his intelligence. Jesse's whole If you end this phone call, I'm torching your money ploy seemed like the kind of weird detail that would have raised Walt's suspicions once upon a time. But it makes sense—when emotions run high, rationality can run low.

And poor Huell. The guy's a brilliant pickpocket, and they make him fall for Hank's bullshit interrogation ruse. (My nephew asked me: "Can the authorities really lie to people like that?!" Yes.) It was pretty clever of Hank/Jesse, though. Just seeing Hank use the Hello Kitty phone made my night.

Actually, what really made my night was seeing Todd trying to put the moves on Lydia! Oh man have I been waiting for that shoe to drop. Neither character is easy to read. I think Todd's just a young horny dude and Lydia's literally the only woman in his circle of felons. (Not that I blame him. Lydia's pretty hot, if a little high strung. And, I suppose, she's a murderer, but nobody's perfect amirite?)  And Lydia? I honestly can't tell if she just looks down on Todd, is disgusted by him, doesn't like to mix business with... whatever it is she would do with Todd, or if she was actually momentarily flattered by the attention from this young ruffian and was therefore somehow disgusted with herself. But that whole moment they had—the lipstick!—has to be significant down the road, right? If Todd ever has to choose, maybe he'll surprise his racist uncle by showing allegiance to she who wears the high heels. They do make a cute couple (of murderers).

How bizarro a reality does young Todd inhabit. though?—it's a reality where the ultimate way to woo a high-class gal like Lydia is to give her some shitty tea and promise you'll do everything in your power to improve your meth-lab skills. Also, if you can throw in that your racist uncle can muscle people across the globe, that'll also help impress her.

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Re: A Breaking Bad Conversation Thread w/ *SPOILERS* Up the Wazoo

Okay, several things.

When Walt said he knew how to bring Jesse out, and the show cut to Brock - I cried out loud "NO, COME ON, NO". And when Walt faced Brock, I thought I was going to cry. It was so sick. Walt talking casually to Brock - after all that happened. The mother and the child being completely oblivious to it. Fuck you, fuck you so much, Walter.

After that, it was pretty much the same as BBQ: from the text message with the barrel picture to the very ending - that's almost twenty fucking minutes - I could not move a bit. I was paralyzed. When I realized Walt was trapped, I kept thinking about the flash forward, not understanding how the hell he could get away with it. And then the whole scene where Walt has to walk slowly toward Hank. Brain screaming "WARNING: SOMETHING'S ABOUT TO GO VERY WRONG."

Then Hank calls Marie, and I tell myself: "He's going to die. There's going to be a sniper and he's going to fucking die." But he doesn't. I think Gilligan made that part exactly with this purpose - make us think: "This is not right. He's won, but something's gonna go wrong." And it did, but not in the way that I thought. This man is very clever.

Now, where are we left? Oh, yeah: how the hell is Hank gonna survive this? Please tell me he will. The "I love you" part to Marie made my brain come out of my ears. But I don't believe he's just going to die at the start of next week's episode. Jesus Christ, Vince. You're a monster.

If the next two episodes are even worse tension-wise, I might have a heart failure.

Last edited by Saniss (2013-09-09 20:54:41)

Sébastien Fraud
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Re: A Breaking Bad Conversation Thread w/ *SPOILERS* Up the Wazoo

I'm not watching the show, but reading all this I have to wonder how much better this is going to be for future viewers watching it in daily syndication. Imagine all this happening, AND YOU DON'T KNOW IT'S THE FINAL EPISODES! I had that experience with Blake's 7, where every cast change and death was a wonderful surprise. I wouldn't be shocked if the creators are putting these episodes together with that in mind, that in the future viewers streaming the show will not notice there's no next season until they get to the final episode.

I write stories! With words!
http://www.asstr.org/~Invid_Fan/

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Re: A Breaking Bad Conversation Thread w/ *SPOILERS* Up the Wazoo

That's not inconceivable. My friend caught up on Netflix in early 2012 and he thought that the season 4 finale was the last episode. And it could be, had they decided to end it there.

"The Doctor is Submarining through our brains." --Teague

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Re: A Breaking Bad Conversation Thread w/ *SPOILERS* Up the Wazoo

My only theory about how Hank/Gomie/Jesse walk away from this gun battle is that they surrender and Walter bargains with Todd's crew -- saying he'll go back to cooking for them if they let the others live, but if they kill them then Walter will never cook for them again.

That's the only feasible way I can see the situation playing out without all of them dying.

Any other ideas?

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Re: A Breaking Bad Conversation Thread w/ *SPOILERS* Up the Wazoo

However they manage it, it just seems too soon for Hank to be taken out of the picture.

But I'm real worried about Gomie...  hmm