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I just find this argument (not just as articulated by you, but by other people who took issue with the finale) really reductive.
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The finale, in which the classically pessimistic protagonist (which is rare to begin with) is able to empirically deduce OPTIMISM in the face of only ridding the world of one arm of a vast conspiracy is rare and wholly unique. To claim an ending is a cop out would imply compromise or ease. I see nothing easy about that ending. They nearly died and only kinda won. They didn't survive against all odds, they nearly perished against all odds. They were armed, had the element of surprise, and there were two of them. They made quite a few mistakes along the way, and Cohle had the single worst time to have trippy visuals. They're lucky to be alive, but as Cohle acknowledges...being alive isn't lucky. He's gutted by any sense of being reunited in some fashion with his Dad and Daughter, and yet he's here. That's not going easy on your leads.
I dunno...The procedural stuff in episodes 1-5 always were ways to draw definition AROUND these two characters, just like the paper thin other characters were there to add texture and dimension to the world they inhabited. The procedure was always there to service the characters, not the other way around. So it seemed to me at least.
True Detective ended pretty much exactly how I thought it was going to end. Except for that optimistic bent. That was probably the show's only real surprise. Nic Pizzolatto said in an interview that he had no desire to pull a fast one over on his audience and that the show wasn't "trying to outsmart you." I wonder to what degree director Cari Joji Fukunaga agreed with that sentiment, since most of the "clues" fans were so focused on were visual, all of the little details that were meant to catch your eye and make you think. But the story, as written, never promised us any more than what we got. Personally, it felt like too much of the punch of this story landed in episode six. It was never really interested in the mystery, so the last two episodes feel like a couple of guys cleaning up after the party was over.
Me too. I'm pretty sure I hated it. What Cohle said at the end undermined what was daring and different about him as a TV character.
Right. I forgot characters aren't supposed to grow or change after a traumatic event.
Absolutely. I mean, I get it. I was hoping that it wouldn't be that kind of change is all. I was hoping the show wouldn't go in a certain direction with Rust, and boy did it ever.
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The Rust we knew in episodes 1 thru 7 would have said that his near-death experience was likely stressed neurons firing wildly from loss of blood/coma/pain meds. I wanted that Rust to visit the wheelchair-bound Rust in the hospital for a chat. I thought maybe he'd die at the end having saved the day, saved some innocent kids or something, an existentialist hero striking a small blow against the absurdity of the universe. He dies a hero's death with his ethos more or less in tact. Or something. Whatever it would have been. What we got was him going from being a combination of Sartre and Dirty Harry to being a guy who, at the end, seems like he'd almost be willing to blurb "Heaven is For Real." I just... I was really hoping that wouldn't be his arc.
Absolutely. I mean, I get it. I was hoping that it wouldn't be that kind of change is all. I was hoping the show wouldn't go in a certain direction with Rust, and boy did it ever.
SPOILER Show
The Rust we knew in episodes 1 thru 7 would have said that his near-death experience was likely stressed neurons firing wildly from loss of blood/coma/pain meds. I wanted that Rust to visit the wheelchair-bound Rust in the hospital for a chat. I thought maybe he'd die at the end having saved the day, saved some innocent kids or something, an existentialist hero striking a small blow against the absurdity of the universe. He dies a hero's death with his ethos more or less in tact. Or something. Whatever it would have been. What we got was him going from being a combination of Sartre and Dirty Harry to being a guy who, at the end, seems like he'd almost be willing to blurb "Heaven is For Real." I just... I was really hoping that wouldn't be his arc.
I don't think it's nearly as dramatic a turn as you're making it sound.
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He's not changing his world view, he's evolving it, like many philosophizers who have danced around Sartre and Shopenhauer do. We can still be sentient meat...but we still make choices, and those choices, as Rust realizes not just through his near death experience...bend us towards the general direction of good. He acknowledges the black of night but realizes in the macro view.....we're creeping slowly towards a slightly better version of ourselves. He's not exactly leading a choir of children in a rendition of "I Believe I Can Fly." Because again, take a macro view. Marty and Rust are not exactly what you would call good people. But...over the course of 17 years, they were able to eventually bring about some demonstrable good. That's the grand contradiction of humanity. We're ugly sacks of water and shit, but when we get over ourselves, we can maybe be ok. That's all Rust was saying.
I just find this argument (not just as articulated by you, but by other people who took issue with the finale) really reductive.
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The finale, in which the classically pessimistic protagonist (which is rare to begin with) is able to empirically deduce OPTIMISM in the face of only ridding the world of one arm of a vast conspiracy is rare and wholly unique. To claim an ending is a cop out would imply compromise or ease. I see nothing easy about that ending. They nearly died and only kinda won. They didn't survive against all odds, they nearly perished against all odds. They were armed, had the element of surprise, and there were two of them. They made quite a few mistakes along the way, and Cohle had the single worst time to have trippy visuals. They're lucky to be alive, but as Cohle acknowledges...being alive isn't lucky. He's gutted by any sense of being reunited in some fashion with his Dad and Daughter, and yet he's here. That's not going easy on your leads.
I dunno...The procedural stuff in episodes 1-5 always were ways to draw definition AROUND these two characters, just like the paper thin other characters were there to add texture and dimension to the world they inhabited. The procedure was always there to service the characters, not the other way around. So it seemed to me at least.
Yeah, but the character stuff is what I'm talking about, and it gets dropped in favor of the procedure in the last 3 episodes. That's what bothered me. The last 3 episodes are like a completely different show.
"The Doctor is Submarining through our brains." --Teague
Everything I want to say's in that hulk piece. Dude's unreasonably articulate. The mystery and the procedure was always a fun device, but was never what the show was about.
It's not beholden to a conditioned audience that assumed it was all for some other end. Deserves it's own merits.
I dunno...The procedural stuff in episodes 1-5 always were ways to draw definition AROUND these two characters, just like the paper thin other characters were there to add texture and dimension to the world they inhabited. The procedure was always there to service the characters, not the other way around. So it seemed to me at least.
Yeah, but the character stuff is what I'm talking about, and it gets dropped in favor of the procedure in the last 3 episodes. That's what bothered me. The last 3 episodes are like a completely different show.
Agreed. Part of the fun of this series was how the three timelines fit together and served the characters' arcs, but once it was all 2012, it seemed to lose some of it's spark. I don't have a problem with the direction the story took, but I think the action in 2012 could have been better incorporated with the rest.
The time jumps did nothing for me, one way or another. Didn't NOT like them but they seemed the least important aspect of the show to me.
The time jumps were how we knew our characters were unreliable narrators and provided us with a lot of characterization as they talked about (and sometimes, lied about) their past selves. I don't think it was perfectly executed, but I do think they were very important.
OK, I'll restate to clarify. The time jumps certainly were not bad, and were great narrative devices. With that said, the time framing device wouldn't be in my top 5 favorite things about it.
OK, I'll restate to clarify. The time jumps certainly were not bad, and were great narrative devices. With that said, the time framing device wouldn't be in my top 5 favorite things about it.
1) Tone 2) Philosophy 3) Performances of Matthew and Woody. 4) Editorial (admittedly biased) 5) Dialogue 6) Set design 7) Michelle Monaghen (She does a lot with a little) 8) Narrative Structure (i.e. flashback device) 9) Errol's performance. You can voice cast an entire pixar movie with just him. 10)Watching the internet shit it's pants because the finale didn't butter it's toast and tuck it in at night.
I do hope that season 2 features other characters following up on the same case. As much as I liked it, there's a lot left unanswered and unfinished. If this really is it for the Yellow King case, then I feel like Rust and Marty should have been more definitive than the TV saying the Tuttle rumors were denied and Marty shrugging his shoulders.
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Marty could have found a cache of evidence that identifies the elder (dead) Tuttle as the Yellow King, describes the extent and purpose of the secret society, explains Errol's apparent dual or triple personality, etc. That cache of evidence could easily have burned up as a result of Errol's attempt to get away with his crimes (and provided cinematic lighting for the climax).
Instead, it wrapped up the murders Rust and Marty were investigating without getting to the bottom of the whole conspiracy or even Marty's daughter's possible involvement as a victim.
I'd love to see two female detectives carry on next season, uncovering the secret society, interviewing girls who may have been victims, and stumbling across Marty's daughter; then Marty returns to wreak vengeance.
Last edited by Zarban (2014-03-11 02:21:37)
Warning: I'm probably rewriting this post as you read it.
Zarban speaks for me. TD is incredible, but the number of questions it left unanswered is frustrating. I came (and stayed) for the mystery. The light vs dark stuff was a fine garnishment but, ultimately, it's silly and not applicable to my (and I hope no one else's) life. More puzzle pieces and case files, pls.
Yeah, leaving stuff unanswered bothers me a lot. I hate how the show can be like, "LOL fuck you it was never about the answers!" after spending several weeks building up how mysterious and complex the answers were.
"The Doctor is Submarining through our brains." --Teague
1) Tone 2) Philosophy 3) Performances of Matthew and Woody. 4) Editorial (admittedly biased) 5) Dialogue 6) Set design 7) Michelle Monaghen (She does a lot with a little) 8) Narrative Structure (i.e. flashback device) 9) Errol's performance. You can voice cast an entire pixar movie with just him. 10)Watching the internet shit it's pants because the finale didn't butter it's toast and tuck it in at night.
Before Cotterpin asked for the top five I had already put down 4 things that I take away from the show. I think it tells a great deal about people and their priorities what you take from the show. We are informed by so many things that make up who we are and who we think, wish, would like we are.
What I took from the show is what I take from most visual storytelling.
1) Cinematography - I am in awe of the mastery of the camera that was put on a display for us in these 8 episodes. The compositions of the frame just blew me away.
2) Story (Narrative) - I liked both but I understand that some might have issues with both elements. For me they both worked but for many they were lacking. But then again I've never been after the "perfect" story. I come from a more mythology/folklore background and am more interested in themes, motives. Fragmented storytelling has never been a problem for me. I have also said here on the forums before that I'll take a story that says something to me over a "perfect movie" that check's all the boxes but does not speak to me. I would prefer them to be both but I take emotional, thought and discussion provoking stories before technically well made that have little to nothing to say.
3) Dialogue (and performance) - For me it was poetry, others did not like it. So it goes. A show can't be all things to all people.
4) Tone - Loved the tone of the show, writing, editing and DI work came together for me. Other opinions are available. It does not bother me that other people did not like it.
p.s. Are we not all waiting for the they died in the end a la Taxi Driver rhetoric to begin? Now that will bother me to no end when such nonsense begins.
--------------------------------------------- I would never lie. I willfully participate in a campaign of misinformation.
For a show whose apologists have decided was "never interested" in being a procedural/mystery, it sure spent a goddamn lot of time focusing on the procedure and mystery.
I like how everyone's (not just here) wondering why the internet decided there must be some significance to the clues, as if every episode they didn't keep harping on the clues, adding a new one, stepping back and inviting us to try to suss out the big picture with them. Still, I wonder how much it sucked to be the filmmakers and see the internet hyping themselves up in a way you knew you weren't going to pay off.
At any rate, I thought it was fine since it did lead to a solved case, albeit an ultimately fairly straightforward one. I'm a little disappointed they didn't push the weird tales aspect more (and/or that they introduced it at all if they didn't care to actually do it), but maybe the next season will explore that more. And maybe not. I thought it was well made and I liked the performances and their relationship, and I didn't really think about it in the intervening weeks so I hadn't built up too much expectation, so, meh. I'll watch season two.
EDIT: Honestly, it's the Yellow King business that screwed things up. Take that out and you've got a show that lives up to its title -- true detective work is messy, can take decades to solve a case if you manage to solve it at all, and it often doesn't give all the answers or give you what you need to take down all the bad guys. On that level, I like it a lot. It was just the ill-advised introduction of a very particular type of occultism that confused the issue, and got the audience thinking (and excited) about what else the show could be doing instead of enjoying it for what it was.
For a show whose apologists have decided was "never interested" in being a procedural/mystery, it sure spent a goddamn lot of time focusing on the procedure and mystery.
I kind of want to go back and add up minute by minute the amount of time spent True Dective-ing and the amount of time Rust and Cohle were just being Rust and Cohle against the backdrop of True Detective-ary, because (and I swear to god this isn't 11th hour retconning) as I watched it it seemed much more focussed on other things than the procedural. Even in scenes like where Cohle is hitting up hookers for qualuudes and getting answers the story just seemed more about him than his quest for truth. Like most things in life do, it reminded me of The Karate Kid. There's kicks and punches and Karate Gi's and Kiai's aplenty, but at the end of the day, it's not a movie ABOUT Karate. Karate is the world in which it takes place (and holy shit, typing that sentence felt SO GOOD, you guys) but it's a movie about a fatherless son and a sonless father finding each other. True Detective season 1 is, was, and always shall be about the power of Narrative on the human cosnsciousness in navigating the horror of a fucked up world when it's in your throat, up your nose, and crawling in your skin. The fact that all supporting characters were drawn so paper thin should have been the clue that this wasn't a procedural, where rich background characters are usually its stock in trade.
I don't disagree with Mike's issue of The Yellow King. It was too big for a McGuffin, and ultimately too small to matter, so it's place in the story is a bit of an odd fit. If they do connect it to season 2 somehow, bully for them. If not, meh. No big deal to me and it didn't really hinder my enjoyment of it.
My only problem is that, for a show that promised right from the beginning to be about occult rituals, it didn't deliver much of that specific thing. I didn't expect it to end with Rust and Marty crashing a spring clean for the May queen, but I expected more than an old VHS tape of some unnamed unspeakable act. Imagine a mini-series about a "basketball killer" that ends up only including a few seconds of basketball on tape and a climax in an empty basketball court. ("OMG there are vague hints that his daughter might once have played basketball!")
The whole setup of the show was that this crime from 1995 wasn't completely solved by killing Ledoux; it was a conspiracy continuing to the present day, and it was big and went high up, and Rust and Marty would have to overcome their animosity to uncover the full extent of it. But in the end, they really just redid what they did in 1995: got a low-life who did the dirty work.
Warning: I'm probably rewriting this post as you read it.
Imagine a mini-series about a "basketball killer" that ends up only including a few seconds of basketball on tape and a climax in an empty basketball court.
That show exists - it's called Derrick Rose's Career. Sucks.
I know only 3 people will get that joke. To those people: you're welcome.
The structure of the series means you could have done anything with the ending, up to and including killing the two leads, because you get a clean slate with the next season. Why did you choose this particular way to end the story?
Nic Pizzolatto: This is a story that began with its ending in mind, that Cohle would be articulating, without sentimentality or illusion, an actual kind of optimism. That line, you ask me, the light's winning, that was one of the key pieces of dialogue that existed at the very beginning of the series' conception. For me as a storyteller, I want to follow the characters and the story through what they organically demand. And it would have been the easiest thing in the world to kill one or both of these guys. I even had an idea where something more mysterious happened to them, where they vanished into the unknown and Gilbough and Papania had to clean up the mess and nobody knows what happens to them. Or it could have gone full blown supernatural. But I think both of those things would have been easy, and they would have denied the sort of realist questions the show had been asking all along. To retreat to the supernatural, or to take the easy dramatic route of killing a character in order to achieve an emotional response from the audience, I thought would have been a disservice to the story. What was more interesting to me is that both these men are left in a place of deliverance, a place where even Cohle might be able to acknowledge the possibility of grace in the world. Because one way both men were alike in their failures was that neither man could admit the possibility of grace. I don't mean that in a religious sense. Where we leave Cohle, this man hasn't made a 180 change or anything like that. He's moved maybe 5 degrees on the meter, but the optimistic metaphor he makes at the end, it's not sentimental; it's purely based on physics. Considering what these characters had been through, it seemed hard to me to work out a way where they both live and they both exit the show to live better lives beyond the boundaries of these eight episodes. Now they are going to go on and live forever beyond the margins of the show, and our sense, at least, is they haven't changed in any black to white way, but there is a sense that they have been delivered from the heart of darkness. They did not avert their eyes, whatever their failings as men. And that when they exit, they are in a different place.
All of the things that, in the previous episode, Cohle was telling Marty that he had uncovered, and what we saw on the videotape, pointed to a larger group of men working on these things. But we get to the end, and it's just Errol left, along with his father in the shed. How many other people were involved in the specific things that Cohle and Hart were investigating?
Nic Pizzolatto: There's the men in the video, and there's about 10 of them. Then you can begin to look at that as if that cult began to disintegrate shortly afterwards, and then there were always revenants existing on a local level. If you track the name Childress, you realize Sheriff Childress was the sheriff when Marie Fontenot disappeared, an Officer Childress was attending to Guy Francis in 2002 when he committed suicide. The conspiracies that I've researched and encountered, they seem to happen very ad hoc: they become conspiracies when it's necessary to have a conspiracy. I think it would have rang false to have Hart and Cohle suddenly clean up 50 years of the culture history that led to Errol Childress, or to get all the men in that video. It's important to me, I think, that Cohle says, "We didn't get em all, Marty," and Marty says, "We ain't going to. This isn't that kind of world." This isn't the kind of world where you mop up everything. We discharged our duty, but of course there are levels and wheels and historical contexts to what happened that we'll never be able to touch.
I'm still pleasantly surprised at how optimistic the ending was. It's sort of refreshing to be rewarded by a storyteller who is true to his intentions and not trying to mind rape the audience. I think it's fair to say some people over-analyzed the shit out of this show to the point that they set themselves up to be disappointed. But yeah, not the most satisfying of conclusions after all that build up of intrigue, suspense and Tuttles.
On the other hand, we know that the last really active killer among them, Errol Childress, is dead, and that's who they set out to find. We also know Reggie Ledoux, Dewall Ledoux, Billy Childress, Ted Childress, Billy Lee Tuttle and probably Sam Tuttle (due to age) are all dead. I suspect these are 7 out of the 10 people in the video. The only one who either knew or possibly took part was Edwin Tuttle and so far, he has gotten away with it.
If the show went off the rails slightly for me, it was with that video tape. Both Hart and Steve Geraci reactions to said tape could've been done better. Also the reveal and, thankfully, brief time spent with Errol was less than convincing. Those were by far the weakest moments for me and the only time I was pulled out of the story. Everything prior to that had me grinning with anticipation and totally immersed in what was unfolding.
I might be having a brain fart here, but I think if Pizzolatto and Fukunaga held off revealing the killer until the very moment Cohle and Hart apprehended him at the compound, it would've made for a more kickass climax. Especially seeing as the killer wasn't all that fascinating to begin with (as is the case with most serial killers, it must be said). A few tweaks here and there and this takes its place alongside seasons 3-4 of The Wire and seasons 2-3 of Breaking Bad (another amazing show that ended on a less than inspired note) in the pantheon of great television. As it stands, season one easily cracks my top 10.
The somewhat predictable, but no less gripping, last 1.5 episodes also doesn't alter my opinion that True Detective deserves to clean up at the Emmys and Golden Globes (acting, writing, directing, cinematography, editing, music, should all be LOCKS). With the exception of the second and third season of the aforementioned Breaking Bad, parts of Game of Thrones, Boardwalk Empire, and even Walking Dead, nothing on televison or at the multiplex in recent years has come close to what Pizzolatto and Fukunaga served up. The dialogue, staging and set-pieces were fantastic! Pizzolatto mentioned in a interview that the last 15 minutes of "Who Goes There" (in which Rust Cohle, in his undercover Crash guise, infiltrates the Iron Crusaders and raids a stash house in the projects) is a Michael Mann tribute album. The key thing for me, though, is each episode (and the show overall) stands up on repeat viewing. I can't wait to pick up the Bluray and download T-Bone Burnett's score.
As pointless as the over-analyzing ultimately proved to be, poring over every detail of True Detective was almost as fun as the online sleuthing Cosecha transmisiones kicked off almost a year ago.
