Re: Twilight
I think the Nostalgia Critic is an embarrassment to criticism and he must be stopped at all costs. So there's my contribution to the conversation.
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I think the Nostalgia Critic is an embarrassment to criticism and he must be stopped at all costs. So there's my contribution to the conversation.
As someone who has watched most of his videos, I just don't see it. I may not always agree with his opinions but I don't always agree with FIYH, either. Sometimes, I think Doug's reviews completely miss the mark (Last Action Hero). Sometimes, I find him really insightful and thought provoking (AI, Tribute to Roger Ebert). Most of the time, above all else, he just makes me laugh, hard (The Care Bears Movie, The Shining miniseries, Pearl Harbor).
If he spent more time making unique and interesting observations about film and less time shrieking and spouting memes, I might have more respect for him. He's plot-hole-culture incarnate. That entire way of looking at film just bugs the shit out of me.
And tbh, he's not nearly as bad as all the shitty imitations of him. Because of him, there are thousands of people on the internet who think that screaming about bad movies is as good as criticism gets. And that's basically evil in my book.
Plot-hole-culture? Huh. Never heard that before.
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I like it too.
I feel I should clarify something. I saw Twilight (the first film) and was surprised at myself for not hating it. It's beautifully shot, well-directed and contains some unironically, interesting and entertaining moments. I'm not even opposed to the basic idea of the material: Teen girl moves to a new town where she doesn't know anyone, strikes up a relationship with a boy who turns out to be a vampire and together, they must save themselves and each other from the threat of a secret society of other vampires who want the girl for her rare, virgin blood.
On the face of it, that has the potential to be very compelling, exciting and unique. You could even treat Bella's blood like a weapon that could be used against the human race if the vampires succeed in trying to harvest it from her. Maybe work it so she discovers she can take control of her body and use her blood against the vampires (like, they have to perform some kind of ritual and kill her before the blood can do what they need it to do). Because her blood is pure, it burns Vampires like holy water. Some self sacrifice could take place at the end, in an effort to save one of our protagonists.
The werewolves could be brought into the story as well. Subvert the trope of them being snarling, mindless killing machines and have them be a more peaceful race that are one with nature, stay away from humans and only eat animals in the forests and don't like to get involved in the warring factions between the two different vampire clans. Despite all this, Jacob and Edward are longstanding friends and when Edward asks for his help, Jacob and his people initially refuse. However, Jacob and Bella begin to inadvertently develop feelings for each other. This causes tension between Edward and Jacob at first, testing their friendship. Ultimately, Edward (being the much older and wiser one) feels that it's not right for either of them to fight over Bella and treat her like a prize to be won and it's best left up to her.
Trouble is, Bella is having a hard time making such a decision, especially given that a supernatural war is eminent and she's still a teenager. On the one hand, she met Edward first and she likes his dark, potentially dangerous nature. On the other hand, Jacob would be a more secure, practical way to go. He wouldn't out live her and he's her best bet to a normal life.
The war goes down and the "bad" vampires hold Edward hostage, in an effort to get the "good" vampires (in this case, the Cullen clan) to hand Bella over. She starts to agree, just so she can hopefully save Edward, when Jacob and his people arrive as reinforcements, as Jacob has convinced them it's the noble thing to do. They save Edward but he feels the war will not stop and Bella will always be in danger. So, he sacrifices himself by drinking some of her blood, thus making it impure but killing himself in the process. Though at the cost of Edward's life, Bella is safe to have the life he never could and her new relationship with Jacob helps to bring the werewolf clan out of hiding, so they can live in unity with humans.
Or something.
Get a competent, female writer to pen that and I would totally read/watch it.
On the face of it, that has the potential to be very compelling, exciting and unique. You could even treat Bella's blood like a weapon that could be used against the human race if the vampires succeed in trying to harvest it from her. Maybe work it so she discovers she can take control of her body and use her blood against the vampires (like, they have to perform some kind of ritual and kill her before the blood can do what they need it to do). Because her blood is pure, it burns Vampires like holy water. Some self sacrifice could take place at the end, in an effort to save one of our protagonists.
The 90's anime Blue Seed has some of this. There is a family line with a special power. If a daughter from it is sacrificed by humans in a certain way, evil demon plant creatures can be banished for another few centuries. If the creatures sacrifice her in a certain way, the threat to them is over and they can just crush humanity. So, both sides want to protect the girl from the other while at the same time kill her. With the humans, morality comes into play, causing them to focus on keeping her alive until there's no other option.
Being anime, there's also lots of panty shots.
Just tell me there's a scene where the anime stops dead in its tracks so the creatures can play sports for no good reason.
Nope. There is an episode, however, where the unit's computer wiz has created a program to guess probability using which colored panties the main character is going to wear that day as a test, and it ends up having real world applications. Also lots of evil plants. (It's actually a rather good show, the comedy relief characters becoming fleshed out as the serious plot lines kick in).
ADVision released it in the US alongside Neon Genesis Evangelion, and it sort of got lost. I think they paid the same for both shows, as such things are based on what the Japanese think they're worth.
I'm not politically motivated enough to like or dislike any piece of fiction for ideological reasons. Not everyone shares my beliefs and I don't expect to see them represented and/or appealed to in everything I watch. This goes to back some of the shit I was saying about True Detective a few months ago:
I understand criticizing a film or show through structural analysis, aesthetic criticism, genre criticism, auteur theory, and so on, because those have to do with the actual filmmaking and storytelling. I may not agree with it, but at least there is a degree of objectivity and it's trying to better understand how films and shows work. I can't take social criticism of media seriously. All of it boils down to the author projecting their own political and social ideologies onto the work. There is no objectivity or true criticism of the piece, it's just a soapbox for the critic to explain why something sucks because it doesn't cater to their desires and values. It's film criticism for people who don't understand the nuances of filmmaking or storytelling. It is the absolute laziest way to critique any work.
It's well past my bedtime, so I shall attempt to be brief.
The main reason I disagree with this stance is because a work's socio-politics are an important part of the world-building, and because social and political ideologies are often clear thematic elements in a work. Dismissing social criticism of media altogether would ignore analysis of a legitimate aspect of storytelling. We often give note to the socio-politics of a show like Game of Thrones, because, as an obvious work of fantasy, it's important to understand how things work in its fantastical surroundings. But I think it's just as important to pay attention to these details even in something like True Detective, which is assumed to take place in the "real world." It's one way to understand how and what an author or filmmaker is trying to communicate with her audience.
Twilight takes place in a modern setting, which is largely recognizable, but has a number of fantastic elements. Both vampire and werewolf societies have rules and assumptions governing their interactions with human beings and each other, and these rules and assumptions impact the story. Although Bella comes from a world that we recognize, the same is true for the human society she occupies. Saying that I have problems with the ideology of Twilight is another way of saying that I can't connect to the material. Not because I have a problem with teen romance, but because Meyers has created a world in which the characters' actions are inscrutable and disturbing.
Enjoying a story who's ideology you disagree with can be difficult, but it can be done. One reason I can enjoy religious movies and music while having no faith in their core beliefs myself. Hell, any story about someone becoming king or queen goes against my core democratic principles, but I usually don't come away from them wishing there had been a peasant revolt killing the hero and installing some parliamentary system.
Besides, correct me if I'm wrong (and I do apologize if I am) but isn't everythingshiny a Woman? If these discussions were truly an example of "mansplaining", she would have dropped out of the conversation or at the most, been shouted down or something. Typically, that doesn't really happen here, anyway.
Hah, yes I am and I am thoroughly enjoying this conversation. I don't feel "mansplained" to or shouted down at all, personally. Believe me, I've been shouted at before (usually by my sister, because I'm often not strident enough in my beliefs to suit her taste) and this is much different.
I don't like Twilight because it disturbs me that it shows an abusive, controlling relationship as something pure and romantic and to-be-striven-for. I consider myself a feminist, and I understand that some people do love the story, and that's fine. My co-counselors and I at summer camp spent some time talking to our campers about the content, acting it out with rag dolls (gotta do something in Arts & Crafts, there are only so many friendship bracelets one can make) and having them re-imagine scenes with Edward described as being ugly, instead of gorgeous. Amazing how something romantic can turn offputting in a moment as soon as you reverse all of Edward's adjectives! I wasn't trying to stop them from liking Twilight, and some of them do still enjoy it, but we wanted them to think about the content instead of just soaking it in without any critical thought. (And many of the girls who, as 14-16 year olds, loved Twilight, are now horrified by it.)
There was a scene around the end of the second season (I think) of The Vampire Diaries (TV series, not the books) where Elena tells Stefan that she doesn't want to become a vampire, because although she loves him right now, she's sixteen years old and she can't be sure that she'll love him forever. She wants a chance to grow up and change her mind, and have a family, and be normal. And he accepts that. (Sadly the show stole all of Elena's agency in later seasons and rendered itself unwatchable, but that moment was a big middle finger to Twilight and I for one loved it.)
I understand criticizing a film or show through structural analysis, aesthetic criticism, genre criticism, auteur theory, and so on, because those have to do with the actual filmmaking and storytelling. I may not agree with it, but at least there is a degree of objectivity and it's trying to better understand how films and shows work. I can't take social criticism of media seriously. All of it boils down to the author projecting their own political and social ideologies onto the work. There is no objectivity or true criticism of the piece, it's just a soapbox for the critic to explain why something sucks because it doesn't cater to their desires and values. It's film criticism for people who don't understand the nuances of filmmaking or storytelling. It is the absolute laziest way to critique any work.
I respectfully disagree. For me, social commentary is one of the most compelling and interesting parts of any story. I don't really care much about how it's shot or what genre it is in, as long as it speaks to me on some level. I don't mean I have to directly relate to it (though it sure helps) but I have to see some kind of bigger picture in it for it to mean something to me. But that's what I'm interested in and that's why I write, to explore those kinds of ideas.
Story is social commentary. That's the point of telling one. All those other things are just the means to the end. To study all the technical aspects of the how but categorically exclude the why defeats the purpose entirely, in my view. And is probably part of the current problem with the way people currently review, and make, films.
Story is social commentary. That's the point of telling one. All those other things are just the means to the end. To study all the technical aspects of the how but categorically exclude the why defeats the purpose entirely, in my view. And is probably part of the current problem with the way people currently review, and make, films.
ALL OF THIS!
Story is social commentary. That's the point of telling one. All those other things are just the means to the end. To study all the technical aspects of the how but categorically exclude the why defeats the purpose entirely, in my view. And is probably part of the current problem with the way people currently review, and make, films.
I don't think this entirely contradicts Ewing's point, though. Social criticism of media that ignores filmmaking and storytelling is useless, imo.
Socially conscious media criticism is varied. There's writers who do excellent work taking that approach, and then there's some lackluster stuff. Lots of my favorite critics (like, ever) belong to the former category, and some of the worst pieces of criticism I've ever read belong to the latter. What turns a lot of people off to this mode of work, it seems to me, is that for some of the folks writing it there's something of a soapbox effect, the sense that her/his passion for the artform pales in comparison to her/his passion for whatever ideological position is being advanced. This might be related to what Doc's getting at. The best socially conscious critics tend to come off as equally passionate about aesthetics and social justice. (Just as the best socially conscious films tend not to be too heavy handed.) Those are the critics I like reading, the ones who come to the enterprise out of a love and fascination with movies/media and then explore that love and fascination through a socially astute lens. The ones I don't have time for are the ones who just seem to need a good solid club with which to beat the things they don't like, and so they'll use movies because, hey, everyone likes movies.
Socially conscious media criticism is varied. There's writers who do excellent work taking that approach, and then there's some lackluster stuff. Lots of my favorite critics (like, ever) belong to the former category, and some of the worst pieces of criticism I've ever read belong to the latter. What turns a lot of people off to this mode of work, it seems to me, is that for some of the folks writing it there's something of a soapbox effect, the sense that her/his passion for the artform pales in comparison to her/his passion for whatever ideological position is being advanced. This might be related to what Doc's getting at. The best socially conscious critics tend to come off as equally passionate about aesthetics and social justice. (Just as the best socially conscious films tend not to be too heavy handed.) Those are the critics I like reading, the ones who come to the enterprise out of a love and fascination with movies/media and then explore that love and fascination through a socially astute lens. The ones I don't have time for are the ones who just seem to need a good solid club with which to beat the things they don't like, and so they'll use movies because, hey, everyone likes movies.
We need an "I am in agreement!" forum macro. The Citizen Kane clap is too celebratory.
Ideally, critics should be focusing on what, if anything, the movie is saying, and how well it's saying it. Whether you agree with the point or not should come into the process very late, if at all. It does, though, too often devolve into just using the movie as an excuse to give their point of view. I remember a "wonderful" review of the Next Generation pilot, "Encounter at Farpoint", in the free Communist newspaper left in the University of Buffalo Commons. Their opinion was that it was great when Q was going on about how humans had fucked up and nuked the planet, but did not go NEARLY far enough in that direction. Very amusing.
I think it was Roger Ebert who once said, "A movie is not what it is about, but how it is about it."
Yes, that was in fact Roger Ebert who said that.
While it's vague enough to theorize on multiple meanings from it, I think the main thing he was saying was:
Regardless of similar genre or plot, not all films are created equal, so presentation and execution counts for an awful lot. For example, you can have two films about a zombie apocalypse but how you choose to tell that story can play greatly into whether or not a zombie film, uh, zombie likes one over the other, or even if he likes either one at all. To put this in a more topical context, look at the core through lines from Twilight and let's say, the first three seasons of Buffy the Vampire Slayer: A romance between a human and a vampire. Strip everything else away, and that's the single, consistent narrative that touches and changes everything else. Both properties, when you get at the heart of them are about watching these two characters fall in love and try to have a relationship and make it work, despite their stations in existence.
Everything else is either reversed or completely different, right down to the film stock, storytelling format and aspect ratio. All of this will influence and inform the viewer's opinion and assessment of that basic story idea. If you're a fan of that "human loves vampire" theme, because of all those other differences, even if you do in fact love both properties, you're going to eventually prefer one over the other.
Personally, the only "critic" I've seen that tends to review things from a generally shallow, almost narrow-minded perspective, the way in which I think Ewing is raging against would probably be Confused Matthew but maybe that's just me.
Yes, that was in fact Roger Ebert who said that.
While it's vague enough to theorize on multiple meanings from it, I think the main thing he was saying was:
Regardless of similar genre or plot, not all films are created equal, so presentation and execution counts for an awful lot. For example, you can have two films about a zombie apocalypse but how you choose to tell that story can play greatly into whether or not a zombie film, uh, zombie likes one over the other, or even if he likes either one at all. To put this in a more topical context, look at the core through lines from Twilight and let's say, the first three seasons of Buffy the Vampire Slayer: A romance between a human and a vampire. Strip everything else away, and that's the single, consistent narrative that touches and changes everything else. Both properties, when you get at the heart of them are about watching these two characters fall in love and try to have a relationship and make it work, despite their stations in existence.
Everything else is either reversed or completely different, right down to the film stock, storytelling format and aspect ratio. All of this will influence and inform the viewer's opinion and assessment of that basic story idea. If you're a fan of that "human loves vampire" theme, because of all those other differences, even if you do in fact love both properties, you're going to eventually prefer one over the other.
Personally, the only "critic" I've seen that tends to review things from a generally shallow, almost narrow-minded perspective, the way in which I think Ewing is raging against would probably be Confused Matthew but maybe that's just me.
CM does fit that category though he often relates it to whatever was going on in his life as well, or personal stories. I have listened to many podcasts, especially recently, that fall under a similar perspective, of the knee-jerk, shallow based commentary that takes a little more of the, "This is how I feel about X after viewing it."
Well, that has it's place, but to quote someone "Knowledge is the beginning of wisdom not the end." To have knowledge about why a film is bad, does not always impart the societal impact or commentary the story is trying to have. Movies are bigger targets because they have a bigger audience, but I have seen similar shallow commentary on music albums, books, and other media.
However, and this is just my own personal view, is I like to take in the multiple points of view, from CM, to FIYH to SFDebris and the like, and form my own opinion. I'm not a film critic-honestly, I react to stories with regards to characters and not always to the means of delivery (prose, film making style, etc). So, I generally still fall under the "knee-jerk" category.
I think one example of my research and response view is Star Trek Into Darkness (everyone roll their eyes-here goes fireproof again ). One reason it worked so well for me was the social commentary. Maybe it was done better in other films that year, but the commentary stuck out to me.
Now, I will not belabor the point, but like others have said, you cannot review a film and remove the societal context. The commentary of Into Darkness could be missed because not everyone recognize the societal context. Likewise, I am trying, desperately, to understand the cultural significance of the Twilight series and why it has mass appeal. It cannot be removed from it's societal context without losing some of its meaning.
I think that is why I enjoy many films that others do not. The "why" does not escape me, even if it is low budget fan film, I seem to get why the film maker made it. I recall one fan film where I wrote the creator and explained to him my comments and criticisms, as well what I thought he was trying to convey in a fan film. To my surprise, he responded and said I was accurate to his intention. It makes me want to be able to sit down with Stephanie Meyer and be able to ask questions.
So, I agree with many others that you cannot remove the context of a film and still review it. Sorry for the meandering post.
It makes me want to be able to sit down with Stephanie Meyer and be able to ask questions.
Hah, yeah I'd be interested in that too. Ditto Suzanne Collins.
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