But there's potentially offence in *everything*. What's the solution - stop all topical conversation, stop telling jokes? I'm not talking about actual racists, homophobes, and misogynists - fuck those guys.
We're told that life should be pain-free, and frankly that's lies to sell you more drugs and shit you don't need. Pain is part of the experience of life, that's why we're wired to feel it. Learning to deal with the little hurts, to build callouses, and to move forward, is important. Most of the small things that hurt (physically or emotionally) are inadvertent, and in the grand scheme of things, minor.
I am completely intolerant of racism, sexism, and other forms of prejudice.
Intolerance of ideas =/= intolerance of people.
Dave wrote:
But there's potentially offence in *everything*. What's the solution - stop all topical conversation, stop telling jokes?
No. Stop believing you can say anything you (general "you," not you specifically) want without having to face criticism or pushback. Maybe stop speaking without thinking at least a little bit about the consequences of your words.
I agree that nobody has the right not to be offended. But nobody has the right to offend without consequence, either.
No. Stop believing you can say anything you (general "you," not you specifically) want without having to face criticism or pushback. Maybe stop speaking without thinking at least a little bit about the consequences of your words.
I'm not talking about actual racists, homophobes, and misogynists - fuck those guys.
Indeed.
Dorkman wrote:
Dave wrote:
But there's potentially offence in *everything*. What's the solution - stop all topical conversation, stop telling jokes?
No. Stop believing you can say anything you (general you, not you specifically) want without having to face criticism or pushback. Maybe stop speaking without thinking at least a little bit about the consequences of your words.
This is what I was trying to say but you said it better, thank you Michael.
I mean, it's not like I've never said anything potentially offensive on the show in pursuit of a laugh. But I do try to think, if only very briefly, whether the laugh outweighs the possible offense. If it does, then I'll say it and risk the criticism, but I acknowledge (if only to myself) I'm risking it. And I'm sure I've made the wrong call from time to time -- but like Eddie says, I think anyone who looks at my pattern of statements and actions over the course of the show knows when I'm saying something I believe and when a joke has gone awry.
Perhaps we should also think more about contextualizing ourselves. A sound bite or blog post can travel around the world in an instant but the broader context often takes familiarity.
Which reminds me rather of our lord Joss Whedon! /topic
Actually, I missed it at the bottom of the page, but I agree with what you said about the difference between offensive and hurtful.
If you're offended someone said "fuck," well, walk it off. It's not a malicious word, we're just taught it's impolite.
On the other hand, if you're hurt because someone said the n-word -- well, that's come part and parcel with some real pain for real people, and I think the negative reaction easily goes beyond just being "offended."
The James Gunn thing recently reminded me of something that happened with someone else in the public eye, and what was in my opinion, the pitch perfect way of handling it.
About a year and a half ago, a Professional Wrestler (cue Kyle) by the name of CM Punk was in Australia doing a show. As a bad guy, or "Heel," part of his job is to antagonize the crowd so that the good guy, or "baby face" can then kick the crap out of him to everyone's applause. Punk was in the middle of having a sortie with one fan, when the following happened.
It went viral and roughly .8 seconds later, TMZ had it up on it's page, and GLAAD was wheeling the trebuchet's towards WWE's direction. But less than an hour after TMZ went live with the statement, Punk (who is a self described feminist and has a Rosie the Riveter tattoo on one of his sleeves) issued the following statement:
“I'm glad TMZ posted that video because everybody needs to be held accountable for their bullshit, me included. What I said was bullshit. I'm embarrassed. I own up to being a total douche in this situation and I offer a sincere apology to anybody I hurt with careless words.”
This, I think is the gold standard for handling these scenarios. No denial, no weaseling. Just one big, "Yep. I was an idiot." I feel like this should be taught on day one of human school.
On the other hand, if you're hurt because someone said the n-word -- well, that's come part and parcel with some real pain for real people, and I think the negative reaction easily goes beyond just being "offended."
That maybe so but you're taking it to the extreme by referring to it as 'the n-word' when discussing language.
As I said in the Wiki thread, there is no positive benefit to using the word explicitly and plenty of negativity associated with it. It's not a "mixed bag" of a word, and using it would be being offensive and potentially hurtful just for the sake of asserting my power to do so. At best, nothing is gained by it. I don't think it's going to an extreme, I think it's showing exactly the right amount of respect and social responsibility.
EDIT: It's apropo to this discussion, though, because this is a belief and a lesson I've come to after previously making the mistake, and needing to have it pointed out to me why I was wrong.
The fact of the matter is, that word is offensive. Why stir up matters by typing it out?
So is ''Fuck" and a lot of other things.
Dorkman wrote:
As I said in the Wiki thread, there is no positive benefit to using the word explicitly and plenty of negativity associated with it. It's not a "mixed bag" of a word, and using it would be being offensive and potentially hurtful just for the sake of asserting my power to do so. At best, nothing is gained by it. I don't think it's going to an extreme, I think it's showing exactly the right amount of respect and social responsibility.
But you're not using it to describe or refer to anyone. You're having a discussion about the word itself, as a group of letters that happen to have a certain meaning in the english language. There's an entire wiki article dedicated to the etymology, usage and history of the word in question and it's not censored, because within that context it isn't disrespectful or hurtful. You can have a conversation about it without being racist.
Dorkman wrote:
EDIT: It's apropo to this discussion, though, because this is a belief and a lesson I've come to after previously making the mistake, and needing to have it pointed out to me why I was wrong.
My response isn't a jab at you or anything. You can have a personal vow never to say/type the word again and that's fine. It's just the fact that this seems to be a common thing among the people here and that surprises me a lot.
And you can have a conversation about it without spelling it out, so in my view there's no need to do so. The DIF forums are not meant to be a comprehensive reference source as Wikipedia is, so the circumstances are different.
And you can have a conversation about it without spelling it out, so in my view there's no need to do so.
Again, it's fine if that's a personal thing but you (as in 'people who share your views') make it seem like it's a forbidden word that musn't ever be spoken. What happens if someone like me who lives on the other side of the planet and isn't as strongly opinionated on the subject just types it in as a part of the discussion (in a neutral context of course)? Would that get me banned? Would I get labeled as intentionally racist? I'm halfway around the world and I can feel the tension rising whenever the subject pops up so I honestly don't know.
Jimmy B wrote:
Also, I've noticed that despite what you are saying here and in the past, you have yet to type the word yourself. Afraid you may offend someone?
No, I've expressed my concerns in the paragraph above. Also this:
Jimmy B wrote:
Lamer wrote:
'The n-word'? Seriously? I get that you may want to edit the word out of the commentary for the sake of getting sponsorship of any kind but you can't even write it on the board? Are there rules against it or something?
The heat in the Backyard Blockbusters thread aside, things very - very - rarely need to be moderated, or users banned, or posts deleted, around these parts. We're fairly laid back.
Here's the thing with that word. While you're obviously right that it doesn't have the same hot-button kneejerkitude where you're living, this forum isn't where you're living, this forum is international and a lot of the users are in the U.S.
So for now, I'm not gonna instate any particular rule against using the word, but I would ask that you at least be aware of the ramifications of its use in the greater context of the international conversation we're all having.
EDIT: I hope it would have went without saying, but I'll say it anyway - I'm talking about a clinical use of the word, here. Obviously strong hate speech will be dealt with on a case by case basis, but suffice it to say that at least the post it appears in will be edited or deleted.
'The n-word'? Seriously? I get that you may want to edit the word out of the commentary for the sake of getting sponsorship of any kind but you can't even write it on the board? Are there rules against it or something?
Would that get me banned? Would I get labeled as intentionally racist? I'm halfway around the world and I can feel the tension rising whenever the subect pops up so I honestly don't know.
You would probably be asked to edit it and not do so again. If you feel the tension rising about it, then that should be taken as a clue as to how well it is likely to be received, regardless of your personal experience with it.
My Jiu Jitsu coach was a special guest at an MMA event in England some years back, and during a break in between fights was interviewed in the ring. He was going to tell a funny story about this Korean guy next to him who smelled awful. He started by saying, "So I'm sitting next to this smelly Asian guy...."
He was immediately booed out of the cage. Because in England, Asian means being from the Middle East, and a racist stereotype over there is that all people from the middle east do not bath. He said the Yank equivalent of "So this loud colored fellow..." Now, is he racist or a bad guy? Of course not. But he displayed a certain culutural ignorance for which he is ultimately responsible. Anyone who has traveled internationally runs the risk of this.
Now take that word I just used. Colored. Here, it's an awful phrase that is a leftover term from our deplorable history with slavery. But let's say you go to South Africa and someone says, "Oh that nice Coloured gentleman," what they would be referring to is a specific ethnic subset of Afrikaners from Cape Malay, of European and Kohsian and/or Bantu decent. That is a self applied term that has no racial history, and perfectly acceptable.
So my point is, look before you leap, even if only a little.
Dude, I could tell you the amount of slurs that exist over here that are uttered on a daily basis and it sickens me. Like using a slur when describing going for a Chinese meal and shortening the word Pakistani as a derogatory term. It's used so casually it has become a joke.
'The n-word'? Seriously? I get that you may want to edit the word out of the commentary for the sake of getting sponsorship of any kind but you can't even write it on the board? Are there rules against it or something?
Jimmy B wrote:
Ummmmmm.......yes.
I don't see your point.
Eddie wrote:
So my point is, look before you leap, even if only a little.
And that's what I did. I asked about the rules against it and got a response, from you. Because of that I didn't post it despite my personal views on the subject.
Fair enough. I would have thought it was obvious that there are some things you shouldn't really say, though. I know 'freedom of speech' and all that but I doubt DiF want or need the hassle.
