Topic: A Drop In The Waters - My VFS Foundation final project! (A VFX Piece)

Well here it is! 4 months of insanely hard work, of which only 3 were on this project hmm but it's done!

I feel the need to warn you though, there is a lot about this project that I am completely not happy with, and not just in the self deprecating artist way of "Everything I make sucks" there is legitimately some stuff that just does not work. But alas, the fat lady sang and I had to deliver, so here it is. Enjoy.

A Drop In The Waters

Last edited by BigDamnArtist (2010-08-24 08:54:46)

ZangrethorDigital.ca

Re: A Drop In The Waters - My VFS Foundation final project! (A VFX Piece)

That was beautiful. What didn't work? Very, very nice.

I love Blender. I can't believe they give that app away for free.

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Re: A Drop In The Waters - My VFS Foundation final project! (A VFX Piece)

smile Pretty much what didn't work was the signs setting up the environment as this futuristic zoo/nature reserve, and a more technical level the girls looking at the aquarium as the camera cranes up. /secrecy
Yeah Blender is awesome, I did all my modeling, sculpting, UV unwrapping and normal baking in it; I love my Blender.


<I had hoped more people would have found their way over here, but alas, it seems to be my lot in life>

ZangrethorDigital.ca

Re: A Drop In The Waters - My VFS Foundation final project! (A VFX Piece)

The issues that stuck out to me were:

-water is blue. Check out any shot of any aquarium. It's like a giant blue light. There's no blue ANYWHERE in the shots here, and it ought to be the dominant color.

-The criss-crossing God rays don't work for me. Generally a big tank like this they'll just light by leaving it open to the sun, which will have either parallel rays or rays that spread out from a source. I suppose it's feasible to light it that way if you're dealing with artificial lighting above the tank, but aesthetically it's distracting. Some of the rays also appear to be coming from the glass itself, which makes no real sense. Caustics like that come from the surface. They're also flickering too much. It looks less like light shimmering down through water and more like a laser battle.

In the positives, nice shot selection. Wasn't huge on the music but I see why you went with it. What does "Foundation year" mean?

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Re: A Drop In The Waters - My VFS Foundation final project! (A VFX Piece)

Okay, lemme get this out of the way right now, lest I forget to say it: Good on you. You made something, which is more than most people ever do. And what you made was good. So rock on, man.

However, like Dorkman, I had a problem with the grade. It might have been my environment — watched it on my laptop — but it looked very desaturated and crushed to me. (This was the 720p version.) What should have been lush and green, or undersea-colorful, looked drab due to the grade.

One other piece of constructive criticism: By the end, I was aching for a wide shot. The two shots of the dome were cool, but I wanted a wide that gave me some kind of geographical context.

I'm not educated enough about all things 3D to talk about that; the shots didn't look bad by any means. I don't think it'll surprise you if I say those two shots could have looked better, but that's not to say I didn't think they were good.

Overall: Good show, old bean.

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Re: A Drop In The Waters - My VFS Foundation final project! (A VFX Piece)

Alright, in order:

Dorkman:

-There is actaully ALOT of blue light in the shot, the entire aquarium is being lit by blue light, except for a few yellow lights spread aloing the walkways. Although I think the textures might have been killing most of the blueness. So that's probably my bad.

-Yeah, the crisscrossing was a (failed) attempt to make it look like some sort of artificial light was involved. (A large part of this also links back to the backstory of this thing, which looking back was probably way to much of an abstract idea to get accross in such a short time with the resources I had available.)

-The lights coming "fromt the glass" are actually meant to be spotlights installed on the support beams pointing out lighting the God Whale/Kelp and etc.

-The God Rays were created with a caustics generator (Namely cause I couldn't figure out any way to generate them with after effects or Maya in any decent amount of time. So I didn't have alot of control over them, although I thought they looked alright, but maybe you're right.

-The music...yeah, just yeah, I know

-Foundation year refers to the Foundation course at Vancouver Film School, which basically amounts to my first year here. ALthough my first and second year are entirely seperate courses this is the introduction course to everything. Yeah it's kind of confusing.

Jeff:

-The grade...this was intentional, again it links back to the overarching backstory of what this entire complex is supposed to be, that just didn't come accross. If you guys want I can throw it all up on here and see what you think.

-I'm not really sure what you mean by a wide shot, the first shot of the aquarium is about as wide as I could get. Or do you mean a shot of the entire complex, like forest and aquarium and everything? (AGain, way to big of an idea, small amount of time)

-Yeah, this project was hit by maaaaaaasive time hits, and I know every project has that but mine was that to the extreme, by the end I probably lost at least a week and a half if not 2 weeks of solid work time. SO yes, I totally know what you mean.

Thanks guys, keep it comin.

ZangrethorDigital.ca

Re: A Drop In The Waters - My VFS Foundation final project! (A VFX Piece)

maul2 wrote:

Dorkman:

-There is actaully ALOT of blue light in the shot, the entire aquarium is being lit by blue light, except for a few yellow lights spread aloing the walkways. Although I think the textures might have been killing most of the blueness. So that's probably my bad.

Maybe you put blue lights in there originally, but no, there's no blue light in the final render. Pull it into AE and check out the RGB values. There's a slight blue bias but it's effectively black. Compare it to say, this image, or this one.

Unless that's part of the backstory too. But for a standalone VFX piece, you shouldn't rely on an unstated backstory to make the audience understand why the aesthetically "wrong" way is "right."

maul2 wrote:

-The lights coming "fromt the glass" are actually meant to be spotlights installed on the support beams pointing out lighting the God Whale/Kelp and etc.

No, I see and understand those. I mean that the angle of the criss-crossing rays coming from the side of the glass are such that they would seem to have to be coming from the glass, not the surface.

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Re: A Drop In The Waters - My VFS Foundation final project! (A VFX Piece)

Well I was trying to give it the aesthetics of looking out into fairly deep water, so it wouldn't be the "sky blue" color that shallower pools are, but the much darker , near black it is. But understood.

For the rays go, as far as I can tell we are talking about the same thing. There are spotlights located along the exterior of the 3 central support beams pointing inwards towards the scene. The only rays coming from the "surface" are the ones much further back in the scene.

ZangrethorDigital.ca

Re: A Drop In The Waters - My VFS Foundation final project! (A VFX Piece)

maul2 wrote:

Well I was trying to give it the aesthetics of looking out into fairly deep water, so it wouldn't be the "sky blue" color that shallower pools are, but the much darker , near black it is.

In that case there shouldn't be caustics or God rays at all, as the surface would be too far above for those to reach what we're looking at.

maul2 wrote:

For the rays go, as far as I can tell we are talking about the same thing. There are spotlights located along the exterior of the 3 central support beams pointing inwards towards the scene. The only rays coming from the "surface" are the ones much further back in the scene.

Yes, there are spotlights pointing inward, and further screen-right of those, there are God rays at an angle that does not seem to allow them to reach the surface before intersecting with the glass. Perhaps it's just the camera angle.

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Re: A Drop In The Waters - My VFS Foundation final project! (A VFX Piece)

Yeah I think it's just the angle.

ZangrethorDigital.ca

Re: A Drop In The Waters - My VFS Foundation final project! (A VFX Piece)

Alright so I have a question for all you wonderful people out there that somewhat relates to this project but more to the one I'm currently writing.

Where is the line drawn between the back story of a world being visible, adding detail and a certain amount of mystery to the piece and where it begins to detract from the piece?

ZangrethorDigital.ca

Re: A Drop In The Waters - My VFS Foundation final project! (A VFX Piece)

Any detail included that isn't necessary for understanding the ultimate point of the story is technically a detraction.

The point where the amount of detractions will sway the opinion of each audience member will be different, but generally, the lesser the better.

Re: A Drop In The Waters - My VFS Foundation final project! (A VFX Piece)

Alright I think I need a case study for this one...

Firefly...

So we have this entirely new universe to play in. But we are never given any amount of explanation for the majority of that universe. Sure we understand the basic broad strokes, Alliance=big bad government, inner planets rich, outer worlds not so rich. But we never get an explanation (In series) for the whole Chinese thing or the mix of Western and Eastern influences, they are simply there in the background and we as the audience are expected to figure it out.

I wouldn't say any of that is necessary to understanding the ultimate point of the story, at least as far I understand it. We could easily have the story of this ragtag team of people surviving on the fringes of civilization without any of the Chinese stuff. So by your logic, all of that is a distraction. But obviously it isn't, so why not?

I guess another way to  put it is, where is the difference in building a universe to play in, and just having it be distractions for the audience? Is it simply a matter of execution?

PS. It's also ENTIRELY possible that I have been arguing this with myself for so long that am completely missing the point now.

Last edited by BigDamnArtist (2010-08-27 02:01:30)

ZangrethorDigital.ca

Re: A Drop In The Waters - My VFS Foundation final project! (A VFX Piece)

Unless the back story relates to the actual plot, I think the important thing is both the characters and the camera should ignore it. It is just there. In Firefly, the Chinese stuff is treated the same way as if the show was set near the US/Mexico border. It should influence you as a writer as you develop the story and characters, but stay mostly invisible.

I write stories! With words!
http://www.asstr.org/~Invid_Fan/

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Re: A Drop In The Waters - My VFS Foundation final project! (A VFX Piece)

maul2 wrote:

So we have this entirely new universe to play in. But we are never given any amount of explanation for the majority of that universe. Sure we understand the basic broad strokes, Alliance=big bad government, inner planets rich, outer worlds not so rich. But we never get an explanation (In series) for the whole Chinese thing or the mix of Western and Eastern influences, they are simply there in the background and we as the audience are expected to figure it out.

No, we're not.

We as the audience do not need to figure out anything, other than the broad strokes you mention, to understand the story we're being told.

If we so desire, we can dig in and discover that the Alliance is the Sino-American Alliance and the result of a merger of our present economic superpowers some centuries into the future. This explains why the characters occasionally curse in Chinese -- but at the same time, we don't need such an explanation. Hell, we don't even need to know it's Chinese. It's just as easy to accept that language will have evolved new vulgarities ("frak") and again, it isn't something that's relevant to the story at hand. It's texture. It isn't necessary to know it to enjoy what you're seeing; but it makes the world feel more real because the creators know it, and it helps them define the rules of the world in which the story occurs.

maul2 wrote:

I guess another way to  put it is, where is the difference in building a universe to play in, and just having it be distractions for the audience?

When it gets in the way of effectively telling the story.

To quote David Mamet, "Backstory is bullshit." As in most things, I think he's oversimplifying, but as in most things I think he knows that.

It's fine to have backstory that comes to light and informs the story. That's often necessary, but unless you're writing a mystery, should be kept to a minimum, since backstory becomes exposition and there's few elegant ways to get it across.

It's also fine to have textural details that enrich the world and define the rules by which it behaves, but which never need to be explained for the story to make sense.

The problem is when backstory/details need to be explained in order for the audience to follow what's happening, and yet the details themselves aren't actually important to the story.

I'll give you a quick example. I read the script for a Star Wars fan film in which there was a scene where the hero plays Sabacc. The Sabacc scene went on for five pages, because the writer had looked into the EU rules for the game and wanted to present a Casino Royale-style scene of cardplaying prowess.

Problem is, no one in the audience is going to know how to play fucking Sabacc. There would be no tension in that scene because no one knows what they're looking at. Now, if you got good coverage you could manage something in the edit just based on how characters react, but that's not going to keep the audience with you for five minutes. And yet the story was going to derail during this scene completely. There's no way for the audience to go along with it without having it explained to them but it would be unreasonable -- and unnecessary -- to detour from the story to present that explanation. It's nice you did the R&D, but no. Find another way to accomplish the plot point.

By contrast, do you know how to play the game in Firefly they were playing at the beginning of "Shindig"? "Plums are tall?" But do you need to? Does it have anything to do with the story? No. It's just a textural thing they're doing.

I guess the difference is -- is it a background detail, or a foreground detail? Be careful that you don't drag the background into the foreground when you don't need to. I want to punch the shit out of fantasy/sci-fi writers who include a goddamn glossary(!) in their books. Okay, you did a lot of work developing this, but that's for you, not for me. Don't beat me in the face with it.

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Re: A Drop In The Waters - My VFS Foundation final project! (A VFX Piece)

Dorkman, I freakin love you, that was perfect.

<Jumps back into his project and starts a new draft>

ZangrethorDigital.ca

Re: A Drop In The Waters - My VFS Foundation final project! (A VFX Piece)

DorkmanScott wrote:

I guess the difference is -- is it a background detail, or a foreground detail? Be careful that you don't drag the background into the foreground when you don't need to. I want to punch the shit out of fantasy/sci-fi writers who include a goddamn glossary(!) in their books. Okay, you did a lot of work developing this, but that's for you, not for me. Don't beat me in the face with it.

PunBB bbcode test

I write stories! With words!
http://www.asstr.org/~Invid_Fan/

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Re: A Drop In The Waters - My VFS Foundation final project! (A VFX Piece)

I'm suddenly curious how Dorkman feels about "Movers."

I know the Down in Front-able problems with it better than anyone, but in terms of making something with a ton of backstory compelling without explicitly giving anything away, I am interested how well it works for him.

Teague Chrystie

I have a tendency to fix your typos.

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Re: A Drop In The Waters - My VFS Foundation final project! (A VFX Piece)

Ooo, good point Teague. Movers worked for me, up til the ending, but knowing the backstory of the behind the scenes answered that one for me.

BTW Teague, are you pretty much in agreement with everyone else about all this?

ZangrethorDigital.ca

Re: A Drop In The Waters - My VFS Foundation final project! (A VFX Piece)

DorkmanScott wrote:

If we so desire, we can dig in and discover that the Alliance is the Sino-American Alliance and the result of a merger of our present economic superpowers some centuries into the future. This explains why the characters occasionally curse in Chinese -- but at the same time, we don't need such an explanation. Hell, we don't even need to know it's Chinese. It's just as easy to accept that language will have evolved new vulgarities ("frak") and again, it isn't something that's relevant to the story at hand. It's texture. It isn't necessary to know it to enjoy what you're seeing; but it makes the world feel more real because the creators know it, and it helps them define the rules of the world in which the story occurs.

In fact, the more details we learn about the situation, the more distracting it becomes. It's only after you learn this whole civilization is an outgrowth of a Sino-American Alliance that you think (as Randall Munroe pointed out), "Hey, for a society that's supposed to be half American, half Chinese, there sure aren't a lot of Chinese people around.

As Dorkman said, and as I'm sure we've talked about on commentaries, it's important to have the details worked out for yourself so there's an internal consistency apparent, but that's all texture. Never stop the story to explain how your not-poker version of poker works.

Re: A Drop In The Waters - My VFS Foundation final project! (A VFX Piece)

Dorkman: that's exactly the problem I had trying to read Dune, but to be fair that was a long time ago and my attention span was even shorter than it is now.

Re: A Drop In The Waters - My VFS Foundation final project! (A VFX Piece)

My dad had a policy of never reading a book with made up words, which naturally knocked out most SF and Fantasy (he liked viewer friendly SF, like original Trek and... Starlost). I have no problem with it, so long as the new words seem to be needed. Dune was fine, as we're slowly introduced to most of the new vocabulary at the same time Paul is. I do somewhat agree though with the idea that stuff like Dune turn into a successful series because readers want somewhere else to apply their knowledge of the fictional worlds.

I write stories! With words!
http://www.asstr.org/~Invid_Fan/

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Re: A Drop In The Waters - My VFS Foundation final project! (A VFX Piece)

Anathem is one of my favorite books, so I have to side with the "new words are fine" camp.

Teague Chrystie

I have a tendency to fix your typos.

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Re: A Drop In The Waters - My VFS Foundation final project! (A VFX Piece)

I think the word everybody's dancing around is "verisimilitude."

It's important. But it's a delicate balance. If you try too hard to show verisimilitude, then you become the King of All Exposition. If your story depends on a whole bunch of context, then you're either going to lose your audience, or spend so much time setting it up for them that they lose interest.

It's entirely okay for you, as a filmmaker, to be able to point to any random whatever in any random frame and say, "This exists because of so-n-so, and it is the way it is because of such-and-such." But you'd better be sure that an entirely uninformed audience can look at that random whatever and accept it at face value, without being all "Woah, that is one seriously fracked up random whatever," because as soon as they do, they're not paying attention to your story any more.

In short, a backstory is neither necessary nor sufficient for a film to be good.

That's how I see it, anyway.

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Re: A Drop In The Waters - My VFS Foundation final project! (A VFX Piece)

Also, no scene or moment should ever exist solely to provide exposition. Regardless of the information you need to convey, each scene should still be about somebody trying to accomplish something according to their spine and something else happenig as a reaction to it.

Have the world worked out for yourself and make sure every scene is about somebody doing something and nine times out of ten, the information will take care of itself.

If some important piece is missing and the story isn't clear as a result, your test readers will let you know.