Topic: Terminator: Salvation

Welp, we did it. We put an .m4a "enhanced" episode in the RSS feed. Who knows if this is gonna work.

But, hey! We also are in the process of a major backend revamp that indexes our episodes in a PHP set up, so episodes can now be linked to individually with full page functionality. (Previously the /episode/# trick left updating poster graphcs out of the picture.)

See how it works?

The home page now offers the MP3, M4A, and an explanation roll over.

Teague Chrystie

I have a tendency to fix your typos.

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Re: Terminator: Salvation

Good stuff. I'm usually not a fan of listening to folks mostly trash a movie but this was good-natured and fun. I agree with most of what you said.

I'm loving the m4a. My ipod has a 2.5" 4x3 screen and my eyes are getting old, so feel free to crop images to fill the square. Nice pic of Ron Howard's daughter. Ah Cinefex, i loved that mag. I paid CA$14.50 for one when they switched to the square bound cover, then all the pages soon fell out of the damn thing and i never bought another one.

If there's nothing on the screen but the (awesome!) show logo for too long i'm going to stop looking, so maybe you could put screen shots of the movie every 45sec unless there's something else to display. It'd have the added benefit of syncing the show/movie. Keep up the good work DiF.

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Re: Terminator: Salvation

My ipad has a 10" 4x3 screen and my eyes aren't getting old, so feel free to show pics at whatever resolution and dimension you want.

Last edited by Gregory Harbin (2010-09-13 05:08:09)

Posted from my iPad
http://trek.fm

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Re: Terminator: Salvation

Thanks for the feedback guys. Here's a thread for issues / comments that are Enhancement specific.  Glad the episode was enjoyable!

Last edited by Matt Vayda (2010-09-13 04:29:31)

Re: Terminator: Salvation

I saw this once in theaters, and I completely forgot that Kyle had a little girl sidekick.

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Re: Terminator: Salvation

I'm only about twenty minutes into this one — listening on the morning commute and all that — but so far I'm enjoying the "here's why the movie doesn't work" theme very much.

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Re: Terminator: Salvation

I wish they would just find a better director [read more character driven] and give them a budget of say 30 million and total freedom.
You have to add "cargo cult" to the lexicon.

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Re: Terminator: Salvation

Not that I'm defending the movie, deity of choice knows, it did a lot wrong. But, before I saw this in the cinema I sat down and listened to kyles rants about the future in the original terminator. Listen to it and the movie makes lot more makes sense. Like the Transport ships. kyle talks about the humans being made slaves getting them to do tasks before the machine is designed to do it.

But for the most part I agree. My biggest problem is why in the hell does Skynet know/care who kyle or John conner is. The only person who knows he is the saviour is him. Unless he got drunk one night and started bragging to a vending machine to try and get it into bed.

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Re: Terminator: Salvation

tempestjonny wrote:

But for the most part I agree. My biggest problem is why in the hell does Skynet know/care who kyle or John conner is. The only person who knows he is the saviour is him. Unless he got drunk one night and started bragging to a vending machine to try and get it into bed.

You know, that's a great point. At that point in the timeline, Connor is still just a grunt who has no real power or influence in the military. He isn't the Commander in Chief, he's just a soldier who talks on the radio a lot. Unless Skynet views all of time and space as one, they shouldn't have any interest in him, let alone Kyle. I like the idea of Connor early on, as just a soldier, but you can't have that AND a conventional Terminator plot. AND the Marcus stuff. All of those things could work, but you need to give them each room to breathe.

In my opinion, Connor shouldn't have even been in this film. It should have been strictly about Marcus and Kyle. Oh, sure, we can hear him talk on the radio once, and allude to his presence a couple of times, but he has no character arc in this movie, and therefore no reason to be in it at all.

"The Doctor is Submarining through our brains." --Teague

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Re: Terminator: Salvation

The early script linked to in another thread-
http://screenplayexplorer.com/wp-conten … vation.pdf
has just that. The story is Marcus's all the way, with Connor (who's already in charge) just a supporting character. He's contacted when the resistance captures Marcus, arrives after he's escaped and organizes an attack on the seaside condos of the humanoid terminators when he discovers Marcus is going there to rescue Kyle. If filmed that script may not have worked, but many of the problems with what we did get can probably be traced to trying to fit Connor into that structure instead of just starting over.

I write stories! With words!
http://www.asstr.org/~Invid_Fan/

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Re: Terminator: Salvation

exactly, they should have just started over.  The draft that they had before Bale sucks.  It needs a better something.  The idea of Marcus and Kyle would have worked, It's just the way that idea is packaged needs to be different. 

I also think that we shouldn't even see the T-600's.  I think we should probably see T-300's - T-500's maybe.  Then at the end, we see A T-600. 

Maybe even a cameo of Arnie as a human specimen for the machines to design the T-800's or something.

Last edited by switch (2010-09-14 00:14:23)

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Re: Terminator: Salvation

I think this series suffers from the same fundamental flaw as the Alien series, in that they both follow the human story.  I shouldn't call it a flaw really, but you couldn't make Alien or Terminator from the Alien or Terminator's point of view; you need a human character to follow and relate to.  The trouble with both these franchises from a studio's point of view is, "How do we make a Terminator / Alien movie without John Connor / Ellen Ripley?"  So what you wind up with is The John Connor series or The Ellen Ripley series, which is fine, but it does limit you creatively.

Terminator also suffers from the whole time paradox problem.  McG is already talking about T5 and T6.  If we were to follow Kyle's story from the first movie, "...the war was over, we'd won..." then the last thing we should see in T6 should be Kyle getting sent back in time.  In fact the whole 5th movie should be about winning the war.  Then at the end they hear about this secret Skynet plan to build the time machine.  Then T6 is all about finding the time machine, and the question of fate.  Terminator has really always been about fate; is everything set, or is there no fate but what we make for ourselves?  Does John need to send Kyle back in time? Can he prevent it from becoming necessary?  If he does what does that mean for his existence?

There's some ripe ground for future (pardon the pun) stories in this universe; I hope they dig up a writer that can do more with it than just more "make stuff go boom" stories.

Oh, and the feed is now sending out the Enhanced version, just FYI.

Re: Terminator: Salvation

Oh man, I'm so glad Dorkman brought up cargo cults. Not only are they just plain fascinating, there's a fundamental human truth there.

Cargo cults popped up throughout the Pacific, and they actually predate World War II by a hundred years. But the really remarkable ones were in Melanesia, Fiji and New Guinea particularly. It's just like Dorkman said: After the war ended, the islands were essentially abandoned by Westerners, and the indigenous people there integrated the notion of "cargo" into their preexisting belief systems about sympathetic magic. It's just like Dorkman described; they believed that if they carried out the rituals they'd been taught, then they'd be rewarded with cargo — wealth, essentially.

Believe it or not, there's still an active cargo cult in Vanuatu. It's called the John Frum Movement. The practitioners believe that John Frum is a god who came to them in the 30s in the form of an American soldier, and that he taught them the rituals to bring forth the cargo from the "rot bilong kako," the "road of the cargo" whereby wealth is transported from the spiritual to the material world.

The locals wear homemade World War II-era Army uniforms and wave homemade American flags as part of their rituals. It's fascinating stuff.

The seminal work on the subject is Peter Lawrence's "Road Belong Cargo," if you're really interested.

Anyway, we can point and laugh at those guys — or study them abstractly as a sociological curiosity — but I think the fundamental truth is that we've got a kind of instinct for causality, as people, and a natural tendency to believe that if we do X then Y will happen, and to build up whole rationalized belief systems to support that. And the hell of it is, that kind of thinking leads to the desired outcome just often enough to make it difficult to argue against it from first principles.

The difference between the modern scientific method — which works — and cargo-cult primitivism is distressingly subtle.

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Re: Terminator: Salvation

Holy damn is that fascinating. Just ordered the book, looking forward to flipping through it.

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Re: Terminator: Salvation

Thanks for the clarification. I knew as I was saying it that I was getting the details wrong, but close enough to make the point.

Cargo cults come up a lot in skeptical discussions when discussing the difference between scientific and magical thinking, which is where my incomplete knowledge of them comes from. And that's always the point. We're all human beings and our brains are all structured to think this way. Cargo cults are a powerful illustration of how wrong we can go in our thinking, particularly when we mistake the process for the result.

One of the reasons it happened to be on my mind this time (the idea of a "cargo cult sequel" could have equally applied to the Matrix sequels, particularly RELOADED) is that I'd heard a recent reference to cargo cult science, which is the stuff that, for example, Intelligent Design creationists "practice." They put on white lab coats and they hold up test tubes and look at them, and they think this constitutes "doing science." But they're just going through the motions, understanding superficially what science looks like but not the underlying reasons that it looks that way.

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Re: Terminator: Salvation

Jeez, is McG really talking about doing 2 more of these? It's basically a prequel trilogy, since we already know how the whole thing turns out. Have we not learned our lesson on that one? Or, if they mess with causality to make some kind of "point" which this team wouldn't understand anyway, they destroy the whole inevitability paradox that made the original story so interesting. They're literally using time travel to go back in time and kill their own drama before it was ever born.

If this is the same writer as Surrogates, I have the terrible fear that he thinks these movies are actually brilliant and even worse, that there are producers out there who believe him.

Here, I had an idea while listening to the podcast. What they should have done is rip off the structure of the first movies, not the individual moments. In the story of the life of Kyle Reese, the terminators come out of nowhere and basically conquer the human race before they can mobilize. Reese doesn't know how to defend himself yet, but a mysterious figure appears to protect him. Go ahead and say "Come with me if you want to live," but this guy's kinda talking about himself, because the protector this time is John Connor.

Now we have character conflict, because he knows this is his dad, but he doesn't know how to tell him. Maybe Kyle's fifteen or something at this point, and who wants to saddle someone with that kind of information when they're just coming to grips with the fact that the world has been taken over by an army of evil robots.

Reese is frightened the same way Sarah was in the beginning. John is clearly crazy. Even regular gun-toting survivalists aren't known for their emotional stability, but getting raised from a baby not only to prepare for the apocalypse but then to become the savior of humanity can mess with your head. On the other hand, circumstances are starting to prove this particular nutjob absolutely right in his insanity. In the choice between dying at the hands of unstoppable killer robots and trusting a guy who just says he wants to help, Kyle starts to lean closer and closer to the man we met in the original movie. Not only that, he starts to see this older, protective, hyper-masculine badass like a father figure of his own.

What's he going to do when he finds out about their real relationship? Is that before or after John gives him that picture of his mother? We never knew how much information Kyle had before he went back, and we had no idea what kind of bond had ever formed between the two men. Seems like a pretty complex relationship to explore.

At the same time the familiar story beats of growing emotional connection during the escape from danger are repeating themselves like some kind of causality loop, the backdrop this time is totally different. The cops, for example, aren't dismissive of "cybernetic exoskeletons" when the evidence is walking the streets of LA shooting people with lasers and stepping on their skulls, if there are even any cops even left. Maybe the resistance is already a real thing, living in whatever hideouts they can find, scavenging resources and trying to unite as many survivors as they have contact with so that maybe someday there could be hope to rebuild the decimated human race.

Introduce to that scenario the first robots in rubber masks. We know what's coming. John knows it, but how can he that information out? What kind of confusion would that cause? How do we get to that triumphant third act, charging over the fields of our own dead to storm the gates of the MCP, the moment of victory we've been imagining since 1984, when we don't even know who's on our side?

There's four years of Battlestar Galactica to steal what works and avoid what doesn't about this setting, and with a new aspect of the paradox we already know and love, you're not invalidating or overwriting the preceding chapters, just exploring their implications the way that T2 kind of did and Aliens got exactly right. Who wrote those again? I'd vote for following in those footsteps for this project.

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Re: Terminator: Salvation

I think it's clear in the first movie Kyle doesn't know he's the father. He just developed a huge crush on this mystery woman that's probably akin to someone really getting into Joan of Arc and then finding themselves going back and meeting her. As Bill and Ted would say, this is a historical babe!

As for what to do with the sequels, I think you have to go all out with the time travel. The first three films are about attempts by the robots to change history. Start with the scene they were going to start T2 with, Conner captures the Terminator's last stronghold and discovers the time machines. After sending back Kyle and the second Arnold, they look around and find evidence of... alternative timelines. Or time loops. Maybe they find footage of them all dying in the assault they just made (or even the bodies). Some indication that in fact they don't always win and in fact they're just reliving a choose your own adventure story where at the end time travel starts the whole process over again in 1984. How can they actually END the war?

I write stories! With words!
http://www.asstr.org/~Invid_Fan/

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Re: Terminator: Salvation

Why does Skynet know Kyle Reese? The concept of Skynet somehow knowing that Kyle is Connor's father is an impossibility. The only people who know are Sarah and John, and there's no reason why they would announce this to anyone else, let alone make that information available to Skynet.

Has Skynet watched the movies as well?

Imagination will often carry us to worlds that never were. But without it we go nowhere. - Carl Sagan

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Re: Terminator: Salvation

Skynet knows about Kyle Reese because the future Terminators sent a Terminator back in time to the Present Day (Future) Terminators to tell them they need to kill Kyle in this time before Kyle can get sent back in time and then they'll have to send another Terminator back in time to kill him.

Or.

Or something.

Posted from my iPad
http://trek.fm

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Re: Terminator: Salvation

Don't. Do. Time. Travel. Stories. PEOPLE.

Re: Terminator: Salvation

Unless it stars Christopher Lloyd as a crazy wild-eyed old man who claims to be a scientist! big_smile

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Re: Terminator: Salvation

Just listened to this while watching the film for the first time. This was really terrific--very good background and great analysis. The whole panel stays positive and has fun with it. Great listen.

Warning: I'm probably rewriting this post as you read it.

Zarban's House of Commentaries

Re: Terminator: Salvation

Every time you like something that we do, I get a boner.

You don't even have to post your favor anywhere, the act of you liking something causes a severe and inexhaustible erection in my swimsuit area.

Teague Chrystie

I have a tendency to fix your typos.

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