Topic: Revolutions

Hey guys, Teague here. Let’s finish this shit off, shall we?

Newcomer Matt comes prepared to fill the shoes of Trey, notes in hand, to explain to three haters why he likes this movie. Hopefully this keeps your whistle wet until next week, when there will be something fancy to talk about unrelated to the release. (Which will also be good. Next week will be good, I promise. For this week…well, you know. Revolutions.)

Teague Chrystie

I have a tendency to fix your typos.

Thumbs up Thumbs down

Re: Revolutions

Trey had a friggin' checklist of things he liked, complete with TIMECODES. Epic. That being said, I happen to like Revolutions, but I also think Scott's interpretation rant on how they should've been was a hell of a lot better.

Tomahawk Ellingsen

www.extendededition.net

Re: Revolutions

Psst...Matt had the notes...Trey was non existent in this episode. tongue

My movies: ZangrethorDigital.ca
Let's plays: youtube.com/bigdamnartist
Other movie thing I do: youtube.com/BullskitComedy

Re: Revolutions

details, details tongue

Tomahawk Ellingsen

www.extendededition.net

Re: Revolutions

Details are the spice of life my friend. You are living a bland and tasteless existence.  tongue

Last edited by BigDamnArtist (2009-12-04 23:35:42)

My movies: ZangrethorDigital.ca
Let's plays: youtube.com/bigdamnartist
Other movie thing I do: youtube.com/BullskitComedy

Re: Revolutions

I believe they say in the film that the One's abilites extend to the machine world. That to me implies that it IS a type of wi-fi that is part of the machines' programing of him. Why? I have no idea because it was a horribly written movie.
Another possibility is that by jumping into Smith in the first movie he assimilated part of his programming. Smith says something about part of Neo being passed to him. It is conceivable that it went both ways.

Thumbs up Thumbs down

Re: Revolutions

fardawg wrote:

I believe they say in the film that the One's abilites extend to the machine world. That to me implies that it IS a type of wi-fi that is part of the machines' programing of him. Why? I have no idea because it was a horribly written movie.
Another possibility is that by jumping into Smith in the first movie he assimilated part of his programming. Smith says something about part of Neo being passed to him. It is conceivable that it went both ways.

But the problem is that you're talking about programming. That's software. Wifi requires hardware, and that's not something you're just going to pick up or become infected with because you ran afoul of an agent. It has to be installed.

This raises another possibility I hadn't thought of before as an alternate storyline. I mean, we've got "Jerry" as the traitor in the version I did -- what if Neo was, unknowingly, the traitor? What if the machines planted Neo as The One, using The Oracle and other programs to push Morpheus towards him? They would have then installed some kind of transmitter inside of Neo to track his location and help them find the location of Zion. And maybe they could occasionally use that chip/transmitter to override his free will and make him do traitorous things. The mystery of who's the traitor and the reveal that it's a schizophrenic Neo could make for a solid Matrix 2.

Then, maybe by his encounter with Smith or some other trigger (probably something else, as it would come in #2), suddenly Neo gains the ability to transmit back. And things change considerably. There's your Matrix 3.

That I would buy, and it would give a great opportunity for them to elaborate on questions of destiny vs. free will, the difference between who you're "meant" to be and who you choose to be, and the unintended consequences of creating the means of your own destruction. In creating Neo to be basically a thinking weapon, after all, the machines essentially made the exact same mistake that humanity made in creating the machines.

A story with that aspect to it would be quite different from the direction I took my version of it, but would still be one I could be very satisfied with.

But, that wasn't the story we got.

Thumbs up Thumbs down

Re: Revolutions

Alright Dorkman, I gotta get this out.

Why is it that whenever people are discussing this topic, they always mange to bring up the fact that the wi-fi things would need some kind of hardware, and then the whole hardware vs. software things pops up and whatever. Yet they always manage to conveniently forget that every single human released from the Matrix, was grown, FROM BIRTH, with technology implanted into them. Literally running in their veins. I mean there has to be a reason why the plugs can't simply be removed right?

So the way I always saw it (And keep in mind, I never personally had a problem with this plot point, due to the line of reasoning I'm explaining), was that because the machine technology is so literally part of what makes the humans up, (because if the machines can breed humans, we can probably pretty safely assume that they might include some additional hardware to make a connection to the matrix a little easier (Last I checked just stabbing a frickin syringe into the back of your head didn't do much for your health. Let alone get you onto the internet.)

So then, we could pretty safely assume, that this technology, that is already present inside Neos physical body, could be activated by the "one's software" (Or one could say it's simply Neo discovering his own abilities outside the Matrix, and finally accessing the power of his own mind to use the physical tools the machines gave him while he was still connected to the matrix) and therefore be used to connect, even in a somewhat rudimentary way to the Matrix, or even to a lesser extent simply to those Sentinels (since the were in such close range, Neo could have just hacked his way into their Wi-Fi connection and fed them some phony commands).

Call it what you will, but that's how I always saw it going down.

My movies: ZangrethorDigital.ca
Let's plays: youtube.com/bigdamnartist
Other movie thing I do: youtube.com/BullskitComedy

Re: Revolutions

We can't safely assume any kind of wireless connectivity because we have no evidence of wireless connectivity on an individual level. Sure, ships can apparently transmit and receive to and from the Matrix, but humans? Not so much. As you point out, connection to the Matrix requires a big needle inserted into the brain stem. Even the machines' most basic communication requires them to bust out a satellite dish.

And it's not like Neo just communicates with a machine -- he explodes it. With his mind. And then does that again to like a million of them.

I would have no problem accepting some kind of wireless connection if it were in any way established or explained in the world of the film. But it isn't. And there's no indication or explanation as to why Neo should be "The One" in reality as he is in the Matrix (never mind that it's never properly explained or justified what The One is inside the Matrix in the first place). Neo just suddenly has magic powers -- literally an "and then a WIZARD shows up!" second piece of magic.

Thumbs up Thumbs down

Re: Revolutions

OK, Dorkman, so here's the deal that I don't get about with you and the Matrix films:

It seems to me there are two bits of magic,

1. Everyone in the world is plugged into machines
2. Our main character can do crazy things that no one else can do

It's never stated that the One's powers only exist in the Matrix, and in fact, his powers are never explained at all. For all we know, he never needed to be plugged into the Matrix to do the things he did in the first film.

Think of it this way: Neo controls the machines with his mind. Plugging into the Matrix just lets him see the Matrix, and then he manipulates it just like he can manipulate any of the networked machine computers. Plugging into the Matrix is, for him, like looking at an LCD monitor is for us, but he uses a bluetooth keyboard.

So for me, buying that he's able to blow up Sentinals, that's no problem, that's what he's been doing for two movies.

Where the problem is for me is when it's revealed somewhere in film 1 that Neo is special. Until that point, the magic bean that we have to swallow is that the entire world is a lie.

Why do you accept that the Wachowskis ask us to swallow another bean, and then complain when that bean's promise is fully realized?

Last edited by Gregory Harbin (2010-03-17 06:51:18)

Posted from my iPad
http://trek.fm

Thumbs up Thumbs down

Re: Revolutions

To my mind, the rationale behind The One's powers is that he's a human with an imagination and self-awareness that allows him to affect his dreams beyond the usual superpowers of Morpheus and the others. But it's only inside the dream world in which these powers can be demonstrated because they aren't physical powers, only mental. I wouldn't say he can manipulate or control the machines themselves, only the world they have created.

It's mind over matter. That Neo had to essentially die to truly understand the connection between the real world and the Matrix only reinforces this.

We had the most realistic superhero possible, indeed, the only time when a human could ever fly and indeed, toy with the very fabric of existence. But only inside his head.

The sequels then sort of missed this point entirely. And instead of creating an interesting juxtaposition of invulnerable God in the Matrix and vulnerable mortal in the real world, they turned Neo into first Superman then real world telekinetic.

Imagination will often carry us to worlds that never were. But without it we go nowhere. - Carl Sagan

Thumbs up Thumbs down

Re: Revolutions

Gregory Harbin wrote:

OK, Dorkman, so here's the deal that I don't get about with you and the Matrix films:

It seems to me there are two bits of magic,

1. Everyone in the world is plugged into machines
2. Our main character can do crazy things that no one else can do

It's never stated that the One's powers only exist in the Matrix, and in fact, his powers are never explained at all. For all we know, he never needed to be plugged into the Matrix to do the things he did in the first film.

First of all, yes, it is stated specifically that the One's abilities revolve around his ability to reshape the Matrix however he pleased. Morpheus knows of at least one other One before Neo -- the one that freed him -- and makes no indication that he thinks Neo can do anything outside of the Matrix.

Secondly, it is not two magic beans. The magic beans of the story are: what we consider "reality" is a computer program. The rest of it -- humans interfacing through needles in their brains, the ability of certain special people to "hack" the program -- are expressions and fulfillments of that concept.

The special abilities in the Matrix are acceptable because it is not reality, it is a simulation and the freeminds can override it in certain ways -- and the One, we're told, can override it entirely.

It's when suddenly the One has powers outside of the computer program, in reality, that the second set of magic beans appears, and are never explained.

Neo is a hacker, he has a mind for code, and I can accept him using his mind for code to override the Matrix code within the Matrix. The real world does not have a code to override and does not exist within Neo's mind and therefore should not be within his realm of influence.

We can come up with theories all day long -- "reality" is really another Matrix, Neo has an airport card in his head -- but the fact is, this just appears out of nowhere at the end of the second film, entirely without precedent, and is never explained by the movies themselves. Whereas the ability to do fantastical things within the Matrix is well-established and well-explained in the very first movie. In point of fact, Neo learning to use this to his advantage is the plot of the first movie.

Thumbs up Thumbs down

Re: Revolutions

Excellent post. Totally agree.

Teague Chrystie

I have a tendency to fix your typos.

Thumbs up Thumbs down

Re: Revolutions

downinfront wrote:

Excellent post. Totally agree.

Haha when I read this my mind was like "he is saying that because Dorkman hit all the points first"

why I find this funny I have no idea.....

Thumbs up Thumbs down

Re: Revolutions

I think I mostly agree with you, Dorkman. But I still stand by my assertion that The One can do things no one expected.

The things Morpheus and Trinity can do are explained by their being able to understand that the world they're in is fake, so they can manipulate gravity a bit, run a little faster, that sort of thing. But the things that The One does are WAY beyond any of that.

And there's no sign from the others that they think they could ever be like him. He really is rewriting the code as he goes. There's something fundamentally different about the way he manipulates the Matrix.

And so this is a bit of a thought exercise. I want you to forget the explanation for Neo's powers that you had at the end of the first film. Only allow explanations that also explain what he does in film 2.

The only explanation that explains all of it is the one I presented before, that he's been manipulating the machines all along.

This doesn't require retconning, doesn't require us to assume an Airport card.

Instead of telling me how this contradicts what you thought after the first film, tell me how this doesn't logically follow from what we've seen onscreen.

Posted from my iPad
http://trek.fm

Thumbs up Thumbs down

Re: Revolutions

Based on what we see and what they explain to us in the next two movies, The One can do essentially anything at all. We have a demonstration of how much he can do without any kind of discussion or demonstration of his limitations.

In which case, where's the drama and tension? What's interesting about this character and why should I get invested in whether or not he succeeds?

Even Superman has kryptonite.

Re: Revolutions

BrianFinifter wrote:

In which case, where's the drama and tension? What's interesting about this character and why should I get invested in whether or not he succeeds?

Well and that's why the climax of the films became not about how to defeat the machines, but how to get them to live together in harmony.

Complain about that all you like, but it's better than watching Keanu CG-kick Sentinals for two hours.

Posted from my iPad
http://trek.fm

Thumbs up Thumbs down

Re: Revolutions

Gregory Harbin wrote:

And so this is a bit of a thought exercise. I want you to forget the explanation for Neo's powers that you had at the end of the first film. Only allow explanations that also explain what he does in film 2.

And my answer to that is:

No.

Because that's not how it works. They have established a set of rules and must either work within them or explain why they no longer apply and/or never did and we just didn't have all the information.

How can you say this "doesn't require retconning" when it requires that I "forget the explanation from the first film"? That is the definition of retconning.

In a world where the rules set out in the films were different and accommodated Neo's sudden manifestation of abilities outside the Matrix, then I obviously would not be complaining that it violated the rules. As that is not the world in which we exist, it makes no sense to bring it up other than to say there's a good chance I would have been more satisfied with it. We are talking about the films that exist. If we want to talk about other ways they could have done it, obviously I have no problem with that, but it's ridiculous to ask me to imagine a fantasy version of the movies I don't have a problem with, and pretend that somehow justifies the actual versions.

They set the rules and they broke them with neither justification nor explanation. You can excuse them if you like, you can come up with all kinds of reasons that you are making up and have no basis in the story as presented, but you need to recognize that you are excusing poor storytelling, not somehow making it work.

Thumbs up Thumbs down

Re: Revolutions

So you have the same complaint about Empire? According to the first film, Vader is an evil guy who killed Luke's father. In the second one, we discover that he actually IS Luke's father. The only way you can reconcile that is to forget what you had assumed after watching the first one, and believe something that makes sense in light of what comes later.

Also, please note that I'm not disagreeing with you that there are two magic beans, I'm just saying that the second one comes out much earlier than you're saying.

Posted from my iPad
http://trek.fm

Thumbs up Thumbs down

Re: Revolutions

I skipped the DIF Matrix sequel episodes because I simply don't care about them, and was happy to not have to sit through them again.

But as far as THIS discussion, I will say that the series jumped the shark for me at the very point being talked about - when Neo's powers inexplicably spilled over into the real world, I stopped caring what happened next. 

Not only because they took the easy way out, but because it instantly ruined MY favorite concept from the original movie - Neo had become Superman in the Matrix, but in the real world he was as weak as a toddler.

Which was the set up for the best scene in the original movie: when Neo and co. are in the Matrix and Cypher is on the ship with the power to kill them all with the flick of a switch - and Neo is utterly powerless to stop him.   

THAT was a great dramatic setup and they could have kept exploring that during the next two movies, but instead they just threw it away for some wonky Jesus allegory that undermined everything interesting that the first movie had established.

Nice fight scenes, tho, if you like that sorta thing.

Re: Revolutions

my mind is blown by the sheer amount of ideas flying around O.o

Thumbs up Thumbs down

Re: Revolutions

Trey wrote:

Not only because they took the easy way out, but because it instantly ruined MY favorite concept from the original movie - Neo had become Superman in the Matrix, but in the real world he was as weak as a toddler.

This is exactly what I'm talking about. People decided for themselves what the Matrix movies were about, and then complained when the Wachowskis told them that it wasn't about that.

But the fact of the matter remains that the Wachowskis never contradicted their film, only your assumptions about what that film meant.

Which was the set up for the best scene in the original movie: when Neo and co. are in the Matrix and Cypher is on the ship with the power to kill them all with the flick of a switch - and Neo is utterly powerless to stop him.

And you're absolutely right, that was an awesome scene in the first movie, but it would have been horrible if that was the draw of the next FOUR HOURS. You can't make a trilogy with that as your only drama.

Last edited by Gregory Harbin (2010-03-18 01:01:51)

Posted from my iPad
http://trek.fm

Thumbs up Thumbs down

Re: Revolutions

Gregory Harbin wrote:

So you have the same complaint about Empire? According to the first film, Vader is an evil guy who killed Luke's father. In the second one, we discover that he actually IS Luke's father. The only way you can reconcile that is to forget what you had assumed after watching the first one, and believe something that makes sense in light of what comes later.

But this is explained, is a form of new information, and most importantly, doesn't violate the established rules of the story universe.

There is no rule in evidence that says that someone can't be someone else's father in Star Wars.

Likewise, there are no rules that state that the scenario I posted a couple days ago -- that Neo was actually an unwitting mole for the machines -- could not have been the case, which is more akin to discovering Vader is Luke's father. It's new information that can exist without having to alter a fundamental established nature of the story universe.

By contrast, there are very clear rules representing the distinction between the Matrix -- which is not real, and someone who knows that does not need to obey the rules -- and the real world -- which is, by definition, real, and there is no apparent way to bend the rules.

You're essentially arguing that it would make perfect sense for someone who plays a Spider-man videogame to suddenly start using Spider-man's powers in the real world. The One has powers because the Matrix is a video game. It is a program that can be hacked. That doesn't translate to having powers outside of the game, which as far as we are ever told is not a program and can not be hacked.

If the story wants to start breaking its own rules, it had better be ready to explain why those rules don't apply instead of just pretending that one follows logically from the other. Your argument -- that "Neo is special" represents the second set of magic beans -- is wrong. There is nothing that says that someone cannot be special within the Matrix, and in fact it follows easily within the concept of "world is videogame" that some players will be better than others and some will figure out the cheat-codes. But it does not in any way follow logically that he should then also be special in the real world, and if the filmmakers want to make that leap, they need to hold my hand if they expect me to make it with them.

And as I feel I've made relatively clear, my problem is less that the films broke the rules, than it is with the fact that they -- and their apologists -- refuse to even acknowledge that they broke the rules and come up with all kinds of convoluted theories and "thought experiments" to hand-wave it away.

The Matrix is a place where you can have powers. The real world is not, and I won't just accept it if someone starts using powers in the real world. The story needs to at least meet me halfway and take maybe five minutes to fucking explain.

Any fucking justification at all. Any single thing that has been brought up in this thread might have sufficed. But they don't even try.

Thumbs up Thumbs down

Re: Revolutions

Good post, Dorkman. I think I'm on board with you, at least for the most part. I'll need to watch the films and see if what you say holds out.

I think our main points of disagreement are over what the first magic bean is in the first place. You seem to be willing to excuse anything at all that happens in the Matrix.

The first magic bean is that the world we live in is a video game. OK, swallowed.

But then Morpheus tells Neo that the rules can be bent, and even broken. In what video game can you bend and break the rules just because you know it's a game? The only way I know to bend the rules in a video game is to hack. Hacking, then, is the second bean, is it not? Or if it's not the second bean, if it's connected to the first bean, then why can Neo only hack the Matrix? Why can't he hack the machines themselves?

As you say, if something doesn't violate the established rules, than it's OK. Hasn't hacking already been established? And wasn't the overarching question of the first film WHY Neo was so much better at hacking than the rest of them? Why can't this be explained by Neo having some sort of remote hacking ability?

You seem to be begging for an as-you-know scene to explain it. My argument, I guess, is a prima facie one. It happened, there's only one explanation, so there you go.

Posted from my iPad
http://trek.fm

Thumbs up Thumbs down

Re: Revolutions

If the wi-fi is part of the technology the machines have implanted into humans, then you must necessarily ask the question, "Why did the machines put that capability into the humans in the first place?"

There's no reason. And I guarantee any reason you come up with would infer a dramatic situation that we should've seen but didn't, like the machines being able to "remote control" people in the real world that's already been mentioned.