Pan's Labyrinth (Page 1 of 2)

Del Toro has stated that the fantasy elements are actually happening. I'll see if I can find a link after I finish listening to the commentary.

My take: I'm one of those people who liked the flick, but I'm not sure I get it, or if it's possible for me to get it at all. I think it's one of those flicks that the director makes and puts a bunch of his own weird ideas into it without really giving a shit if anyone else is gonna get it or not. But there are a lot of parallels going on in the flick that I find interesting, just from what I remember, since I've not seen it in a year or so, and I'm only about halfway through the commentary:

Mercedes and Ofelia's stories are practically identical. Ofelia's 'fantasy' tasks are the same things that Mercedes is doing in real life.
1) Ofelia needs the key to get into the box, Mercedes needs a key to get into the storage shed
2) Ofelia seeks medical advice from the faun, Mercedes needs to keep getting medicine from the doctor.
3) Ofelia takes food from the pale man even though she's told not to, Mercedes takes food from the storage shed even though she's risking her life to do so.
4) Ofelia is discovered under the bed with the mandrake at the same time the doctor is discovered. The doctor and the mandrake are destroyed at the same time.
5) both are terrified of the captain with nothing left to keep them there, they flee together, both are captured.
6) Mercedes escapes and rescued, then Ofelia is 'rescued' from her room in the next scene.
7) Instead of using subterfuge, both of the characters actively 'attack' the Captain at the same time, attempting to take control of their own fates. Ofelia drugs him and takes her brother, Mercedes and the rebels attack the camp. The captain discovers both attacks at the same exact time.
8) Both of them save the baby at the end.

EDIT:
This is an interview with Del Toro on AIC about the film. Points out a number of interesting things...  things that make me want to re-watch the film again now that I've read it...
http://www.aintitcool.com/node/31084

I can't seem to find the interview where he flat-out stated that the ending was not just happening in her head, and that all the fantasy stuff was real. I think it becomes pretty obvious toward the end of the movie, tho, that this fantasy stuff is actually interacting with the real world...

Last edited by Squiggly_P (2010-06-07 05:37:46)

1. Wow, way to shake the ground the episode was built on. Strong post.

2. I need to rewatch it to verify your timeline, which isn't likely to happen soon. I'll give you the benefit of the doubt:

So? I'm not sure how that makes this more of a finely tuned story.

/devil's advocate

While an interesting detail, I don't see what this adds to the film.

Okay, so the stories parallel each other in some details. And? What about them paralleling each other makes it useful in the telling of the story that they parallel each other? What has been gained in the telling of either story by reflecting it through the lens of the other? What common theme or moral are we supposed to get from this? They're still two effectively unrelated stories occurring side-by-side, regardless of how similarly they are structured.

No, it was clearly meant to be a fairy tale. The little girl is obsessed with fairy tales. Other characters accuse her of confusing real life with a fairy tale. She tells a fairy tale (badly) to her brother in her mother's womb. Quite aside from the fact that I don't see how it being a myth addresses the broader point that the movie is badly structured with no clear point, it repeatedly told the audience to regard it as a fairy tale. Saying it succeeded as a myth (arguable) is just another way of saying it failed as a fairy tale.

How is it structured without a point? Yes, it's a story about the Spanish Civil War, and the stuff with the girl is meant to paralell what's happening in real life. My point of saying it wasn't a fairy tale was to speak against what Cloe said about it not following the 'rules.' Why on earth does it have to follow the rules that you associate with modern fairy tales? It's about a faun screwing with a little girl. Does Midsummer Night's Dream follow your fairy tale rules?

The overwhelming thing I keep hearing from all you guys, is that it's missing and failing on all of these fairy tale points. So that begs the idea...what if it just isn't a fairy tale? So that's why it doesn't have those points.

It's the same basic concept as Midsummer Night, you assume that this fantasy story is a fairy tale (even though it's not) and then proceed to criticize it for failing on all these aspects that it wasn't trying to do. (Rough comparison, sue me)

Alright, so basically your entire premise for calling Pans Labyrinth a fairy tale consists of the following:

1)The little girl likes fairy tales: Shes a 10 year old girl...I would be more concerned if she wasn't obsessed with fairy tales. And I don't see how that dictates that it's a set up for a fairy tale story and not a simple fantasy based story.

2)She's accused of mixing fantasy and real life: Again, shes like 10, when aren't they in a fantasy world? And again, that could just as easily be set up for a typical fantasy based story.

3) She tells her brother a fairy tale. Well, what else are you going to tell him? A sherlock holmes story?

Your entire basis for saying this MUST be a fairy tale consist of stuff that any 10 year old would be doing anyways in real life.

And a mystery fails as an action adventure, whats your point?

Last edited by BigDamnArtist (2010-06-07 14:01:13)

What I find is interesting in the GDT interview, is that it explains that she isn't actually "failing" any tests. Actually, the tests are there to teach her to think independently, so the "proper" reply to the test is to "fail" it in the traditional sense. It's a form of meta-test.

"Here, I give you these bullshit tests with bullshit rules. Your task, which I won't tell you, is to understand it's bullshit, and do the right thing"

Explained another way - she's Kirk, and the Faun is administering the Kobiashi Maru test.

/Z

Last edited by MasterZap (2010-06-07 12:39:19)

^ Seconded.  Thanks for saving me writing a much longer post Zap.

No. My basis for saying it's a fairy tale is the fact that the movie is repeatedly saying "O hai. I am a fairy tale." This movie isn't a fucking documentary. The repeated detail of her obsessions with fairy tales is included for a reason. We're supposed to draw a correlation between her obsession with fairy tales and the fantasy events that occur to her.

All the marketing and reviews took it as a foregone conclusion that this was a fairy tale, and GDT seemed perfectly content to go along with it in interviews, even referring to it as "a fairy tale for adults."

He was trying to make a fairy tale. This is not even a matter of opinion or interpretation. It's just a stone fact.

The question of whether or not he succeeded is more a matter of opinion, but again, the fact that the best defense so far proposed is the demonstrably wrong statement "It's not supposed to be a fairy tale!" is telling.

(Interestingly, the original version of the film's story, mentioned in the above article, would have worked much better as a fairy tale, and probably, for me, as a movie.)

Except, like the explanation that she has created this fantasy world to escape the horrors of her real world (which GDT also said and which would contradict his claim that the fantasy world is real), this is another explanation that doesn't hold up to scrutiny.

She technically succeeds at the test with the toad. If she's supposed to think for herself there, she "fails," although what opportunity that test gave her for independent thought, I don't see it.

The test with the Pale Man isn't failed because she's thinking independently. It's because she's stupid and hungry and eats a grape. She doesn't make the choice "fuck these rules, I do what I want!" She's just not thinking at all. And she discovers (one hesistates to say "learns," though) that the rules are in place for a good reason. She gets two of her fairy companions killed and almost dies herself. If that test taught her anything it's that thinking independently can get your ass killed.

Likewise, the final test, when she refuses to kill her brother, she doesn't really learn anything and she's less thinking independently than having a natural knee-jerk reaction of not wanting to destroy something she loves. And then she gets shot.

You describe a theme that I would have loved had it been present in the movie. But it wasn't. And again, it fails to explain why the other 80% of the movie is even there.

So “it’s not a fairy tale” is the argument? In the face of overwhelming evidence and implication that it is a fairy tale? So Guiermeo Del Toro just sat there writing the script reveling in the glee of misleading his fan-base? As previously beaten to death, it’s a fuckin’ fairy tale. It just is… but if you want to, you can think of it as anything you want. The storytelling still doesn’t hold together.

Even if you think of this as a romantic comedy, to me, the Pale Man scene still reads as follows;
Voice 1 in GDT’s head: So we’re an hour in, and nothing has gone wrong in Underworld Test land.
Voice 2 in GDT’s head: What if this character we have to come to identify as clever and aware and having a healthy fear of death catches a near-fatal case of retarded for a minute?
Voice 1 in GDT’s head : YES, that will advance the story immensely, for reasons I will come up with later.

If it was about learning that the rules are for suckers and that fairy princesses are rebels and are above the rules, why does she suffer when she does not heed the very specific rules laid out by the Fawn? For everybody keeping score, these were rules that she was supposed come to understand as stupid. Your friends getting eaten is like, a punishment, right?

Last edited by Clyde (2010-06-07 23:45:02)

How about, fuck you? How about that?

How about, I like it when our threads get to about three-quarters IMDb level ridiculous?

HOW ABOUT FUCKING FAIRY TALES MAN

EDIT:

UNNGHH! *gang sign*

I totally respect that, Squigs. I don't think I ever saw a trailer for Pan's Labyrinth, so I didn't have that to go on. In fact, I don't think I really knew very much at all going in. My tabula was all rasa 'n' shit.