Topic: [BOAT] What's in a spoiler? (spoilers marked)

Here's something I always find interesting: the way different people think about spoilers.

So in the form of a questionnaire:

How do you define "spoiler"?

How much do you care about spoilers?

What responsibility do people who review/discuss movies have to flag or avoid spoilers?

What responsibility do people who care about spoilers a lot have to avoid reading/watching things that might contain spoilers?

Do you feel there's a "statute of limitations" on spoilers and/or situations in which something is such common knowledge that vigilance about spoilers becomes moot (the paternity of Luke Skywalker, at this point, is not just well-known but part of the culture)?

I feel like people everywhere use the term "spoiler," but it's often clear that what, precisely, people understand that to mean varies.

SPOILER Show
This might be a good Intermission topic for the boys.

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Re: [BOAT] What's in a spoiler? (spoilers marked)

SPOILER Show
But who would dare listen to a podcast episode called "Spoilers!" ?   smile

Re: [BOAT] What's in a spoiler? (spoilers marked)

Extended Edition did an episode on Spoilers.

Just sayin' big_smile

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Re: [BOAT] What's in a spoiler? (spoilers marked)

We had a thread about this at one time, awhile back. I'm on record as abhorring spoilers, regardless of the age or fame of the story.

To me, the point of most stories is not so much WHAT happens as HOW it happens, so I don't want to know those details before seeing the movie. But the traditional definition of a plot twist that creates a spoiler is indeed WHAT happens in a story with a big surprise development or revelation. There's nothing special about "Bond escapes the bad guys" but if you say HOW he does it at the beginning of The Spy Who Loved Me, you'll ruin a great moment in cinema but not the rest of the movie. Whereas there's nothing special about HOW the ending of The Usual Suspects plays out, but if you reveal WHAT happens, you'll ruin the whole film.

A really good twist is one of the reasons I love movies and TV, so I'd never want to take that away from someone just to feel superior that I got there first. This attitude some people of have of "It's been 25 years! You're a loser if you haven't seen that movie by now!" is stupid. Young people have never had a chance to see it, for one thing.

Having said that, I'm all in favor of a full discussion of a film if you say that's what you're going to do or you have a clear expectation that your audience has seen the film. Too much film criticism is done in movie reviews. That's why I like fan commentaries.

To address your specific example, practically all kids see Star Wars when they're young, so joking about Luke Skywalker's paternity among adults is safe. You can't say that about practically any other movie, tho. Maybe Wizard of Oz.

Warning: I'm probably rewriting this post as you read it.

Zarban's House of Commentaries

Re: [BOAT] What's in a spoiler? (spoilers marked)

Jimmy B wrote:

Extended Edition did an episode on Spoilers.

Just sayin' big_smile

Jimmy you just spoiled the fact that an upcoming episode is about spoilers!

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Re: [BOAT] What's in a spoiler? (spoilers marked)

Nah, we released it back in October.

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Re: [BOAT] What's in a spoiler? (spoilers marked)

Jimmy B wrote:

Nah, we released it back in October.

Really? How did I miss that? My brain is spoiled.

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Re: [BOAT] What's in a spoiler? (spoilers marked)

Someone I follow on Twitter was tweeting out BAFTA results today, and someone got mad at him for "spoiling" the awards. People are so obsessed with getting information exactly the way they want it and exactly when. You're going to find out one way or another, so who cares?

In the context of a story, it's different, obviously. If an artist or storyteller wants you to learn something at a certain point in their story, then it does ruin it (to a degree) to learn it beforehand. Then again, a friend of mine once got extremely agitated when I tried to tell him a tiny detail from The Hunger Games. It wasn't a plot twist, it wasn't even an aspect of the plot. It was just a thing that was in the movie, and it was relevant to the conversation we were having. He doesn't want ANY knowledge of a film before he goes in. I think that's a little extreme.

"The Doctor is Submarining through our brains." --Teague

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Re: [BOAT] What's in a spoiler? (spoilers marked)

I'm a bit like your friend, except I can acknowledge when something's not a spoiler. Still, I like to hear as little as I can about a movie or TV show if I am to watch it. I want the story itself to show me everything, in its own time and manner.

Sébastien Fraud
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Re: [BOAT] What's in a spoiler? (spoilers marked)

Rob wrote:
Jimmy B wrote:

Nah, we released it back in October.

Really? How did I miss that? My brain is spoiled.

big_smile

I can't even remember what we say in the episode, it was that long ago. I'm sure we talk about spoilers, that's about it.

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11

Re: [BOAT] What's in a spoiler? (spoilers marked)

I'm much more clear about what I think is not a spoiler than what is. Describing the premise of a movie, or sketching out the broad strokes of its plot, is not a spoiler. If it is, then the biggest offenders are trailers, not reviewers or casual discussants. To me, a true spoiler must undercut a significant effect that a movie is trying at have with its story. The word "significant" is important because, again, there's all kinds of setups and minor plot points that trailers give away freely. So take a movie like PSYCHO (which I'll now spoil):

SPOILER Show
I don't regard it as a spoiler to say "The main character, Marion, absconds with her boss' money" -- even though there's a bit of suspense Hitchcock wrings out of the "will she, or won't she" of that decision. Technically, revealing that undercuts the will she or won't she effect. But it's a relatively minor effect, which is really more of a setup for the rest of the story. Revealing that is different from telling someone about the film's big reveal that Mother is Norman. Doing so undercuts the entire effect of surprise that the film is going for. The whole point of the film, in a sense, IS that one effect. (There were lobby standees of Hitch urging people to be on time and to not spoil that plot point for others.) Thus the film is literally less effective if someone's been given the answer to the central mystery ahead of time. But if you know ahead of time that a character named Marion steals some money and takes off, the film is no less effective. IOW, your experience of enjoying the film has not been significantly harmed just because you knew that setup. This is generally the distinction I make.

I find I don't care about spoilers as much as most people do, from what I can detect. The only times I'm truly upset when a movie's been spoiled for me is when there is some kind of central mystery or puzzle to be figured out, as in PSYCHO, THE SIXTH SENSE, or THE PRESTIGE. But if it's just someone going "They get away at the end" or "Darth Maul dies" or "Cameron Diaz gets semen in her hair," I'm rarely bothered by it.

I actually don't think critics should feel any responsibility to avoid spoilers. Which is to say, I don't think the onus is on the writer but on the reader. The reviewer's job is to assess the work. A reasonable, rational human being realizes that assessing the work requires discussing the work. So long as a movie review is clearly labeled as "Movie Review," reasonable people know that what lies ahead is a discussion of what's in that movie. But if someone is super-sensitive to spoilers of any kind, that person should probably try to avoid reviews rather than bitch out a critic for analyzing a particular aspect of a film in a review. That's critics. Casual conversations, online and elsewhere, is another matter. There, journalistic/writerly integrity is a non-issue, but good manners is. It's widely held that it is polite to flag if not altogether avoid major spoilers when discussing a film. Frequently I forget, but I try. But yeah, I make a huge distinction between critics producing works of criticism and people conversing casually -- one is about the nature of criticism, the other about good manners.

There should be no statute of limitations. There's always someone who hasn't seen JAWS. (I think "No, Luke. I am your father" might indeed be the one and only exception. Little kids who've never seen EMPIRE or any of the OT films know that Vader is Luke's dad. I think they tell kids that when they get vaccinated.)

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Re: [BOAT] What's in a spoiler? (spoilers marked)

Here is the Extended Edition ep Jimmy mentioned.

I hate the attitude of "it's X old how can it be a spoiler" I was always taught it was bad film  to say how a story ends. People like to act like it is some how a new concept.

Extended Edition - 146 - The Rise Of Skywalker
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Re: [BOAT] What's in a spoiler? (spoilers marked)

Rob wrote:

I'm much more clear about what I think is not a spoiler than what is. Describing the premise of a movie, or sketching out the broad strokes of its plot, is not a spoiler. If it is, then the biggest offenders are trailers, not reviewers or casual discussants.

I think some trailers have spoiled movies. Even by showing a particular shot, I felt The Avengers spoils a moment in the film's climax. It doesn't "ruin" it, but does remove the surprise and thus arguably diminishes the impact.

And I think that may be what it comes down to in a lot of cases. Does removal of the surprise diminish the moment and is this always the case?  Well, possibly. Whenever we re-watch movies we're often just as entertained by them and I think whilst we have in the back of minds a memory of our initial emotions, whether the moment works as well again depends on how well it has been executed and its impact on the characters. Darth Vader telling Luke he's his father still works regardless of whether you know it's coming because of the power of the scene and Luke's reaction to the news. Compare this to LA Confidential, where there's a sudden unexpected scene that works superbly when you first see it, but loses nearly all of its impact on a subsequent viewing. In this latter example, retaining the 'virgin' experience is paramount; a spoiler would rob the viewer of that.

Sometimes even describing the premise of a story can reveal things unintended. In the Outer Limits thread, I ended up deliberately obfuscating some of them because even by reading it the viewer has set up expectations of what the story is about, including about how it will end.

My view is that, whenever possible, people should be mindful of revealing any aspect of a movie/TV episode/game etc. that can be seen to negatively impact their enjoyment of experiencing that story for the first time. There isn't really a statute of limitations on this per se, but I think that common sense should be applied, e.g. little point to keep secret if someone says they never intend to watch/read it or is simply not a fan.

Imagination will often carry us to worlds that never were. But without it we go nowhere. - Carl Sagan

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Re: [BOAT] What's in a spoiler? (spoilers marked)

That's part of what I find so curious. Based on what most people seem to regard as a spoiler, goddamn trailers spoil movies left and right, sometimes in really big ways. It's rare that I hear folks complaining that about a trailer giving away too much. People just kind of accept trailers as they are.

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Re: [BOAT] What's in a spoiler? (spoilers marked)

Rob wrote:

That's part of what I find so curious. Based on what most people seem to regard as a spoiler, goddamn trailers spoil movies left and right, sometimes in really big ways. It's rare that I hear folks complaining that about a trailer giving away too much. People just kind of accept trailers as they are.

Haaaaaaavvvve you met the FIYH community?

http://stream1.gifsoup.com/view4/3458452/have-you-met-ted-o.gif

Last edited by BigDamnArtist (2014-02-17 01:19:43)

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Re: [BOAT] What's in a spoiler? (spoilers marked)

Rob wrote:

To me, a true spoiler must undercut a significant effect that a movie is trying at have with its story. The word "significant" is important because, again, there's all kinds of setups and minor plot points that trailers give away freely.

I think that's a great definition for a spoiler. While it's fun to discover details as the story is happening, details aren't spoilers.
I don't care enough about spoilers to avoid listening to commentaries for films I haven't seen, I'll say that. And my favourite book is the Book Thief, wherein the narrator nonchalantly tells you beforehand everyone who is going to die at the end. That being said, I love a good plot twist, and it can be kind of a bummer when someone wrecks that for you. (Which I accidentally did once, to a very spoiler-sensitive friend of mine...I was very sorry. She cared not.)
http://gifstumblr.com/images/well-sorry-doesnt-sweeten-my-tea_1003.gif

I'd say it's common courtesy to flag spoilers in conversation, and if you know you don't want to be spoiled, don't participate.
Things on tumblr get crazy when something new comes out because there are spoilers abound. I think you should stick it under a read more cut and if someone clicks onward, well, that's their deal. It should be that simple, always. Use discretion, people.

No statute of limitations! This always bugged me, just because there is so often the issue of certain people in fandoms saying the new people aren't "true fans" because they haven't watched this or read that.
There will always be people coming fresh to the material. Be respectful of that. Serenity came out almost a decade ago, and it's still a spoiler if I tell you who dies.

  Show

By the way, before I watched Firefly, my friends kept telling me I was Zoe, and I was so on board with that. Like, I'm pretty and badass and my husband is awesome? Yes, please. And then I watched Serenity, and he DIES and I didn't really want to be Zoe after that.

I can't really think of any examples other than Vader where it is engrained in our culture and has transcended the nature of being a spoiler. And I like to think there's still some five year old out there who gets to experience that thrill anew.

alicia ♆
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Re: [BOAT] What's in a spoiler? (spoilers marked)

To Alice's last point, I was literally watching Psycho for the first time when the ending of Psycho was spoiled for me by someone else in the room.

Maaaaan. I was so close.

Teague Chrystie

I have a tendency to fix your typos.

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Re: [BOAT] What's in a spoiler? (spoilers marked)

http://i775.photobucket.com/albums/yy39/valezitah/tumblr_m6k7dbsG0X1qbrxvr.gif

I am so sorry.

alicia ♆
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19

Re: [BOAT] What's in a spoiler? (spoilers marked)

I should have mentioned this because it's funny. This person I know got agitated with me. He asked me how GRAVITY was. I said it was good, unforgettable. He said "Oh really?" I said yeah. Pause. So I started to explain, very generally, why I feel that way. He got mad when I revealed the film's running time. "Man, why'd you have to say how long it is?!"

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Re: [BOAT] What's in a spoiler? (spoilers marked)

Rob wrote:

I actually don't think critics should feel any responsibility to avoid spoilers. Which is to say, I don't think the onus is on the writer but on the reader. The reviewer's job is to assess the work. A reasonable, rational human being realizes that assessing the work requires discussing the work. So long as a movie review is clearly labeled as "Movie Review," reasonable people know that what lies ahead is a discussion of what's in that movie.

A movie critic's job is to help you decide whether or not to see the movie. That necessarily requires them not to spoil the movie.

Warning: I'm probably rewriting this post as you read it.

Zarban's House of Commentaries

Re: [BOAT] What's in a spoiler? (spoilers marked)

Zarban wrote:

A movie critic's job is to help you decide whether or not to see the movie. That necessarily requires them not to spoil the movie.

Indeed.
We're used to, on these forums, dissecting films and examining them critically with the expectation that the person reading has seen the film. Which is a very important distinction to make when talking about film reviews.
A review trying to help someone decide on whether or not to see a movie has a different objective. It's not in-depth analysis, but an overview of whether the films works, and is worth seeing. And necessarily avoids spoilers. In-depth analysis almost necessarily includes spoilers.

alicia ♆
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22

Re: [BOAT] What's in a spoiler? (spoilers marked)

Yeah I don't agree at all. This will leave me open to charges of pretentiousness, and that's fine. I'll take that bullet because this is how I genuinely feel.

Helping someone decide whether or not to see a movie -- in other words, helping someone decide what to do with their dollar -- is not, to my mind, the function of real criticism. (And yes, I'm using the word "real" in this context. Fire away.) That is, in fact, a useful byproduct of good art criticism, not the point of art criticism. If that were the point of criticism, then any review longer than the words "yea" or "nay" would be unnecessary. The best criticism, the criticism you like to read and appreciate the most, assesses the work and offers insight into it. Put it this way: there's something Jonathan Rosenbaum wrote once (and Ebert said something like this at one point too), which goes something like "Criticism is not Consumer Reports." This is precisely my view on the role of the critic. It's not the same as telling someone which toaster oven to buy or which smartphone is the best bargain. Again, helping someone decide whether they should spend money on a film is a useful byproduct, but no true Scotsma -- uh I mean no critic who is worth reading approaches his or her work with the attitude that "My primary role here is to help people decide what to spend money on." Movies are art. Toaster ovens are toaster ovens.

EDIT: And just to be clear: I didn't argue that critics should sling spoilers with reckless abandon. In fact, I think I mentioned that very few critics relish or get off on going out of their way to spoil a film for readers. My view is simply that the critic, in her role as critic, should feel no special obligation to tiptoe around a particular aspect of a film if that critic feels strongly compelled to analyze that aspect of the film. And in fact, many critics are very good about somehow flagging major spoilers, so there's a self-policing system in place that basically works but for an occasional aberration here and there (Armond, David Denby often spoils films in his reviews, but they're in the minority).

Last edited by Rob (2014-02-17 07:19:15)

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Re: [BOAT] What's in a spoiler? (spoilers marked)

I'm all for more in-depth analysis, but "film critic" is a job. Their job description is to tell people how good the movie is and why. If they want to do analysis, they write books, which Rosenbaum and Ebert and most well-respected critics have done, but Ebert kept that separate from his "thumbs up/thumbs down" reviews.

Last edited by Zarban (2014-02-17 07:30:17)

Warning: I'm probably rewriting this post as you read it.

Zarban's House of Commentaries

Re: [BOAT] What's in a spoiler? (spoilers marked)

Rob wrote:

I should have mentioned this because it's funny. This person I know got agitated with me. He asked me how GRAVITY was. I said it was good, unforgettable. He said "Oh really?" I said yeah. Pause. So I started to explain, very generally, why I feel that way. He got mad when I revealed the film's running time. "Man, why'd you have to say how long it is?!"

I can see his point. My sister's main complaint about the film was that, after a certain point, you knew nothing would happen to the other character until the end. To know when that ending is removes the only real suspense. Now, on the other side, it's only really a spoiler if your friend tends to check his watch during movies smile

There's a similar spoilage if you watch something like TV Poker. The games have been edited down to fit a one hour time slot, so if there's one minute left and one player has all their money in the pot, you know they've lost as there's no time for another hand.

I write stories! With words!
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