Topic: Earning a Death Scene

For those who are so inclined, I'm looking for some opinions on having characters die in a book. In the last few years, writers like George Martin have gained a reputation for killing characters all the time, to the point that it becomes their "thing" and turns into a charity auction. In TV and Movies, Joss Whedon seems to have a similar (though lesser) reputation.

Well, I'm writing a book in which death is a real threat, but I hate the idea of exploitative deaths. I haven't read A Song of Ice and Fire, so I can't say whether any of those deaths are exploitative, but some people do have that opinion.

So here's the topic of discussion: What is the difference between a character death that is "earned" vs one that is not? Is there a difference in this between books and tv/movies? How can a character be killed without it being an obvious play on the reader's emotions?
I have opinions on this, but I'm more interested in hearing from other people.

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Re: Earning a Death Scene

I think it depends on the type of story, The X-wing novels had a lot of characters come and go because it would be unrealistic for a fighter squadron never to loose anyone, although they tended to be more Red shirts.

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Re: Earning a Death Scene

Writhyn wrote:

For those who are so inclined, I'm looking for some opinions on having characters die in a book. In the last few years, writers like George Martin have gained a reputation for killing characters all the time, to the point that it becomes their "thing" and turns into a charity auction. In TV and Movies, Joss Whedon seems to have a similar (though lesser) reputation.

Well, I'm writing a book in which death is a real threat, but I hate the idea of exploitative deaths. I haven't read A Song of Ice and Fire, so I can't say whether any of those deaths are exploitative, but some people do have that opinion.

So here's the topic of discussion: What is the difference between a character death that is "earned" vs one that is not? Is there a difference in this between books and tv/movies? How can a character be killed without it being an obvious play on the reader's emotions?
I have opinions on this, but I'm more interested in hearing from other people.


I guess a character death might come across as cheap or exploitative if it simply seems like the writer is cutting off a story line or character.

Having their death lead to more complexity in the story, like a new plot thread, or some other consequence, might make it seem more meaningful and deserved. Or it being sacrificial would probably also play better, since that would also impart meaning.

Basically, for me, using it as an "out" of some sort would feel cheap. If it seems like a substitute for creative writing. However it adding complexity to the following story would probably have a positive effect, on me atleast.

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Re: Earning a Death Scene

A character's death doesn't have to be "earned". It simply has to make some sort of sense, even if only in the "the world is fucked and we're all going to die" way. I did a SF story about former teen soldiers trying to flee the solar system wide civil war. Death was all around them. The key, to me, is not to care what the death does to the reader. It's what it does to the other characters. How THEY react. Let the reader feel however they feel.

This may not work in a TV series, where you want viewers to come back next week, as opposed to a book where they've already bought the whole thing smile

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Re: Earning a Death Scene

In my use, "earned" means that it makes sense for the story.

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Re: Earning a Death Scene

Depends on where you're taking the story. If it's necessary for character B to die to give character A incentive to go on, it makes sense. If you're killing character B to make room for more story and development for character A, you might be better off not including B at all in the story.

Let's say Villain cut a nasty gash on B during a fight. B is hospitalised, and it seems like it'll go smoothly, as B is one of our heroes. If B then dies, it gives A an incentive to further his/her battle against Villain, be it revenge or some other reason.

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Re: Earning a Death Scene

Writhyn wrote:

In my use, "earned" means that it makes sense for the story.

Ah. You probably mean "makes sense for the story you think you're telling". The reader will make sense out of the death, re-interperating the scenes around it if needed. Just remember to never "correct" them smile

I write stories! With words!
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Re: Earning a Death Scene

I agree that the death needs to make sense and have an effect on the story or the characters. A key thing too is to have an investment in the character that dies, ie, we should care enough (either negatively or postively) to feel something (and that can also happen indirectly through another character that has a strong connection to the deceased). I'd argue storytelling is entirely about playing on the emotions of the audience. When the evil witch is defenestrated by the hero in the finale, we cheer precisely because she's been so villainous up til then. When a hapless random guy is riddled with bullets on the street, we feel a tinge of sadness because we just saw him with his loving wife and he was awkwardly rushing out with the garbage.

What you don't want to do (IMO) is kill characters just so that you can prove the danger of a situation. When Redshirt 21 steps on an ancient booby trap and is blown to smithereens, you're not fooling anyone that Kirk is going to do the same.

Imagination will often carry us to worlds that never were. But without it we go nowhere. - Carl Sagan

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Re: Earning a Death Scene

redxavier wrote:

I agree that the death needs to make sense and have an effect on the story or the characters. A key thing too is to have an investment in the character that dies, ie, we should care enough (either negatively or postively) to feel something (and that can also happen indirectly through another character that has a strong connection to the deceased).

I'll add a corollary to that. If a minor character dies, one with a name but that we haven't spent time with, that's fine. Use its weight appropriately in your story though; your other characters should care as much as you want the reader to care. Kill an important character and people aren't affected, it's cheap. Kill a minor character and everyone loses their minds, it's cheesy.

Boter, formerly of TF.N as Boter and DarthArjuna. I like making movies and playing games, in one order or another.

Re: Earning a Death Scene

redxavier wrote:

What you don't want to do (IMO) is kill characters just so that you can prove the danger of a situation. When Redshirt 21 steps on an ancient booby trap and is blown to smithereens, you're not fooling anyone that Kirk is going to do the same.

Ever since I was a teen and read 'All Quiet on the Western Front', I've wanted to write a first person story where the narrator dies in the middle. You turn the page, and get "Um, hi. I'm not Dave. See, things didn't go well last night..."

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Re: Earning a Death Scene

That... I like that. A lot.

Boter, formerly of TF.N as Boter and DarthArjuna. I like making movies and playing games, in one order or another.

Re: Earning a Death Scene

Feel free to steal it or pass the idea on. The story I developed around that, done in the form of a diary that someone else would take over, morphed into The Waifs so I managed to get things out of my system. That book isn't first person, though smile

I write stories! With words!
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Re: Earning a Death Scene

Thanks for your thoughts, friends.

For the record I'm part of a facebook writers' group, but I don't like asking them for advice because all I ever get is hippy-dippy stuff like:
"Let the characters write your story!"
or
"If you're not sure what to do, ask your characters."
or
"Fifty Shades of Grey is a good book!"

I love FIYH forums smile

Last edited by Writhyn (2015-06-19 12:38:36)

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Re: Earning a Death Scene

Writhyn wrote:

"Let the characters write your story!"
or
"If you're not sure what to do, ask your characters."
or
"Fifty Shades of Grey is a good book!"

I love FIYH forums smile

...leave that group.

Sébastien Fraud
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Re: Earning a Death Scene

Well I actually meet a couple of them in person. THEY aren't that bad.

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Re: Earning a Death Scene

well then friend those people in particular, leave the rest behind. That's the worst kind of group.

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Re: Earning a Death Scene

Squiggly_P wrote:

he doesn't like the notion of some main character that you know is immune to death because they're the protagonist.

You have to be careful of the "why did you tell me that story?" question.

In most fiction, you are telling the story of a certain person, your protagonist, and there isn't much point in telling that story if that person dies in the middle. If his buddy survives to finish the tale, then you weren't really telling the story of the first guy, were you? Why didn't you make the second guy the protagonist from the beginning? Just to manipulate me?

GRRM and others get away with it (sometimes) by creating an ensemble, and making the story about all of them and their collective struggles. I think (I'm not a fan of GOT) GRRM also made certain characters around his initial protagonist fill the void left behind, giving them a bigger arc.

Effective deaths tend to be ones where the reader/viewer is interested in that character's arc or personality and ones where the character sacrificed him- or herself and ones that strongly affected the protagonist emotionally, but (as Squiggly says), doing that clumsily can be cloying. Doctor Who used to have characters sacrifice themselves all the time around series 2, as I recall; it got weird. ("Wait! I, the awkward loose end in this tale, am in the unique position of being able to solve this problem by sacrificing myself! So long!")

Earning a death, I think, means making the death mean something larger to the story than just the removal of the character's personality or abilities. I suspect the loss of GRRM's initial protagonist continues to resonate in the saga.

Warning: I'm probably rewriting this post as you read it.

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Re: Earning a Death Scene

Squiggly_P wrote:

Dude, if your characters aren't telling you what they should be doing, then you're not listening hard enough.

OK, I understand what some people mean by characters having a personality and, while free-writing, they can behave in ways that surprise the writer.

I get that this is shorthand for "the writer can surprise themselves", but some people go so far as to insist the characters can't be limited by the story. Which is psychotic. The writer created them in his/her head, and they are subject to whatever imagined situation the writer is scribing!
Characters are not people. If they aren't "behaving" then the writer can change them.
Yes, it's important to maintain consistency within a character, but that is the cognitive process of the writer at work.

I assume you mean "pay attention to internal consistency." Which I totally agree with.

The writers who bug me are those who seem to think characters are capable of doing things on their own.

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Re: Earning a Death Scene

Writhyn wrote:

OK, I understand what some people mean by characters having a personality and, while free-writing, they can behave in ways that surprise the writer.

I get that this is shorthand for "the writer can surprise themselves", but some people go so far as to insist the characters can't be limited by the story. Which is psychotic. The writer created them in his/her head, and they are subject to whatever imagined situation the writer is scribing!
Characters are not people. If they aren't "behaving" then the writer can change them.
Yes, it's important to maintain consistency within a character, but that is the cognitive process of the writer at work.

Naturally, the writer can change the character. However, that's missing the point. If you, the author, set up this complicated plot, with various twists and turns, lots of setup and payoffs, that's all well and good. However, if you then create characters whose personalities you've given them prevent them from following your plan, what was the point? Better to start with the characters, set them in the beginning, and base the twists and turns on what the characters do at each point. You get a much more natural, believable result, with actual people instead of robots.

I'm not sure how much fiction you've written, but when people talk about characters and stories writing themselves, that's how it can feel. It's spiritual claptrap, but it's useful. It's how I can go to bed with one idea of a story and wake the next morning with an entire new point of view on it, with no conscious thought on my part. The work seems to all get done subconsciously, and I have my own silly concepts for what's happening.

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Re: Earning a Death Scene

Maybe I've taken too hard a stance on it, but it's the extremes that annoy me.
Or it's a difference of style? To me, well-developed characters are elements of the story, to be figured out as much as possible along with the plot, so there are fewer wrenches (there are always some) once the actual writing happens.
If the theme of my story is the dark side of loyalty, I had damn well better create characters who reflect that from the get go.

Or "from jump" as Teague would say wink

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Re: Earning a Death Scene

I agree with every single thing you just said. Sorry for not picking up the joke, though tongue

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Re: Earning a Death Scene

If you give characters proper motivations, then they should be driving toward whatever ending you have planned, surprising twists just adding color. If you haven't planned a good ending, you won't have a good ending, which is why most TV finales stink, even for the best shows.

Warning: I'm probably rewriting this post as you read it.

Zarban's House of Commentaries

Re: Earning a Death Scene

There's only one time that I've ever had a character act opposite of the outline of a project. Ollie was supposed to Hit Anderson, and storm off, but I realized that where both characters were at that point in the movie, with what had happened, he wouldn't have stopped hitting the guy until he was pulled off... which isn't where I wanted it to go.

Anyway, somewhat on topic. Going back to Invid's thought seed of switching narrators midway through a book - it'd definitely have to be someone that's been in the story. The hero's sidekick, who now has enormous shoes to fill and an even worse plot to uncover.

To some extent, this happens with the Legends of the Duskwalker series, though it's more of a split between books.

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The first book, Three, mainly centers on a somewhat mysterious gunman, named Three, who finds himself tangled up getting a mother and her child out of a hostile situation. At the end of the book... he dies, and the child is now the protagonist of the second book. They are different books but the effect is much the same - Three served his purpose as a guide and even a mentor, and now Wren carries on his legacy.

(Glad I remembered that series, too; when I got into it, only the first two had been released, and looking for the third book in a series whose first book is named Three is, um. Anyway, out in this August, so yay.)

Boter, formerly of TF.N as Boter and DarthArjuna. I like making movies and playing games, in one order or another.