Topic: The Last Jedi [SPOILERS]

Spoilers to follow!

Cor, I rather liked that, you guys?

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Re: The Last Jedi [SPOILERS]

Yep. 100%.

Hurroo

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Re: The Last Jedi [SPOILERS]

Too early, even after 2 viewings, to write a full review, but in short; loved it.

Tomahawk Ellingsen

www.extendededition.net

Re: The Last Jedi [SPOILERS]

Loved it. Post-movie endorphins but probably better than The Force Awakens.

Edit: Obviously a lot to discuss. But I like the line where they finally, and in the movies, canonized that parsecs = distance.

Boter, formerly of TF.N as Boter and DarthArjuna. I like making movies and playing games, in one order or another.

Re: The Last Jedi [SPOILERS]

Liked it, a little long. Good tho

Protection and power are overrated. I think you are very wise to choose happiness and love. -Uncle Iroh

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Re: The Last Jedi [SPOILERS]

I did notice that, I'll probably be fine with it on a second viewing. I was just noticing before the carrier evacuation was going on that, "Oh, we haven't seen whatever planet the sandskimmers are on yet. Is it this gambling one? No... huh..."

Going in a second time and generally knowing the pacing it'll take ahead of time, I think I'll be fine with it.

Boter, formerly of TF.N as Boter and DarthArjuna. I like making movies and playing games, in one order or another.

Re: The Last Jedi [SPOILERS]

More to come, for now I'll just say I'm mixed leaning toward positive. It's an absolute hot mess of a film, an abundance of great and unique ideas and scenes but also a tonal and structural mishmash.

Re: The Last Jedi [SPOILERS]

Okay, at keyboard.

Aagh, I really don't know how to feel. The Kylo/Rey plotline is the best point of the film by far—Driver continues to kill it, and I'm very glad that we've solidly rejected a redemption arc for Kylo and committed to playing him as the tyrannical man-baby he is. I categorically reject the idea that the Luke Skywalker we know would have EVER ignited his lightsaber with the intention of murdering a child, but Mark Hamill plays the fuck out of the character and the way he goes out is perfect.

Everything else? . . . I . . . I just don't know. For every joke that lands there's another that feels out of place, particularly the outright cartoon that is the casino sequence. I like Rose but the decision to pair her/Finn (and hint at the very end toward a Poe/Rey pairing) makes absolutely no sense. It doesn't help that her/Finn's plot is largely a waste of time that doesn't do justice to our TFA co-protagonist.

Laura Dern kills it. Benicio Del Toro was great but I'm so bummed that Joaquin Phoenix turned the role down because he would have been perfect.

Oddly enough, the VFX were also a really mixed bag. Snoke is amazing—he rivals War for the Planet of the Apes in terms of quality if not scope—but so many of the other creatures felt off in their texturing and their weight. There's such a lack of the physical tangibility that so many of TFA's creatures and ships had. Also, a lot of the time the lightsabers looked downright weird—it's the ROTS effect where they resembled solid bars of color more than semi-transparent beams of plasma.

This also inherits one of TFA's biggest flaws: pacing. The entire movie takes place over the course of twenty-four hours. It feels so breakneck even though it's the longest Star Wars film.

At the end of the day, I'll take TFA's unity of purpose and structure over this one's gonzo carnival. There's a lot to like here, but it's such a bizarre film and it left me feeling wrongfooted. I'll have to revisit it before I can form a definitive opinion, but at the moment I'm a bit baffled.

Re: The Last Jedi [SPOILERS]

Guys.
Yoda can summon lightning from beyond the grave.
How did the Sith ever stand a chance?

(UTC-06:00) Central Time (US & Canada)

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Re: The Last Jedi [SPOILERS]

Also Writhyn, having experienced both within 24 hours I can officially say that for 2017 SF adventure Hyacinth > TLJ.

Last edited by DarthPraxus (2017-12-15 18:07:47)

Re: The Last Jedi [SPOILERS]

DarthPraxus wrote:

Okay, at keyboard.

Aagh, I really don't know how to feel. The Kylo/Rey plotline is the best point of the film by far—Driver continues to kill it, and I'm very glad that we've solidly rejected a redemption arc for Kylo and committed to playing him as the tyrannical man-baby he is. I categorically reject the idea that the Luke Skywalker we know would have EVER ignited his lightsaber with the intention of murdering a child, but Mark Hamill plays the fuck out of the character and the way he goes out is perfect.

Having seen it twice, I read it a tad different. He clearly says for a fraction of a moment, there was a moment of weakness. He ignites his saber, then instantly regrets it. Ben, however, wakes up from the sound of the saber, and is scared shitless. Maybe Snoke at one point told him this was going to happen or something, and reacts accordingly. Luke tries to break it off, but it's too late.


DarthPraxus wrote:

Everything else? . . . I . . . I just don't know. For every joke that lands there's another that feels out of place, particularly the outright cartoon that is the casino sequence. I like Rose but the decision to pair her/Finn (and hint at the very end toward a Poe/Rey pairing) makes absolutely no sense. It doesn't help that her/Finn's plot is largely a waste of time that doesn't do justice to our TFA co-protagonist.

I quite liked the Finn/Rose pairing. Rose coming to save Finn without knowing he was sacrificing himself meant a lot. She gives a little speech about the cause being saving what we love, which I read as a good line, and then it's countered by her kiss, which made me realise she had fallen for Finn. It makes sense. She idolized Finn for being a resistance hero, watched her hero be only human, and then he went back to hero again. For what it's worth, he's her hero.
As for the pairing of Rey/Poe? At no point did I read that. They only just met, and found a tone in a, I don't know, common subject of discussion. Didn't see any love interest going on there.

DarthPraxus wrote:

Laura Dern kills it. Benicio Del Toro was great but I'm so bummed that Joaquin Phoenix turned the role down because he would have been perfect.

Laura Dern looked like she was the one giving away their position, and then you realize it wasn't, and her arc was completed by the sacrifice. People have pointed out that she could've just put the ship on auto-pilot and escaped, but I think she knew she might have to retreat to desperate tactics, in which she nailed it.
As for Del Toro/Phoenix. That's the only missed opportunity for me. You're wrong. Obviously, they'd have to go agains the whole betrayal part, but Lando

DarthPraxus wrote:

Oddly enough, the VFX were also a really mixed bag. Snoke is amazing—he rivals War for the Planet of the Apes in terms of quality if not scope—but so many of the other creatures felt off in their texturing and their weight. There's such a lack of the physical tangibility that so many of TFA's creatures and ships had. Also, a lot of the time the lightsabers looked downright weird—it's the ROTS effect where they resembled solid bars of color more than semi-transparent beams of plasma.

I'm actually interested in what exactly threw you off. On my end, the only issue I had at first, was Yoda. Obviously, it wasn't CG, but I thought it was for a few seconds until I realized it was an actual puppet.
The sabers were pretty good. This coming from a guy who's been rotoscoping sabers and nagging about perfectionism on them since 2002. The sabers had different looks, for different lighting situations, which makes perfect sense, when you think about it. They're essential plasma rods, which would be super-bright, and normally, when exposing for a scene, be super-white, with a slight coloured haze. During daytime, the colours were more distuingishable, even at core-levels, whereas on the "star destroyer", they had brighter cores, and a more prominent glow. Exposure-wise, this makes more sense than the other films ever did.

DarthPraxus wrote:

This also inherits one of TFA's biggest flaws: pacing. The entire movie takes place over the course of twenty-four hours. It feels so breakneck even though it's the longest Star Wars film.

This is a small gripe, but during act 1, and the start of act 2, I also felt the pacing dragged on. Upon second viewing, I picked up on a lot of things I missed, and it didn't feel as dragged out as it did initially.

DarthPraxus wrote:

At the end of the day, I'll take TFA's unity of purpose and structure over this one's gonzo carnival. There's a lot to like here, but it's such a bizarre film and it left me feeling wrongfooted. I'll have to revisit it before I can form a definitive opinion, but at the moment I'm a bit baffled.

TFA, IMO, played it way too safe. Sure, you might call it a remake of ANH, which it isn't, but TLJ took a LOT of chances, delivered, and for the most part, threw us off with a lot of fake outs, such as Finn and Leias' death scenes.


And for the record, my two favourite lines of the film are:
"That's a cheap move". .-Luke, to R2, when Leia's hologram message from ANH is shown.
and
"Read them, did you? Page turners, they are not" - Yoda, after burning the tree. Fucking had me chuckling on both viewings.

Last edited by Tomahawk (2017-12-15 20:44:16)

Tomahawk Ellingsen

www.extendededition.net

Re: The Last Jedi [SPOILERS]

Re: the Laura Dern thing, oh no, I didn't mean "kills it" in a negative sense! Her performance was great.

Re: The Last Jedi [SPOILERS]

Tomahawk wrote:

Having seen it twice, I read it a tad different. He clearly says for a fraction of a moment, there was a moment of weakness. He ignites his saber, then instantly regrets it. Ben, however, wakes up from the sound of the saber, and is scared shitless. Maybe Snoke at one point told him this was going to happen or something, and reacts accordingly. Luke tries to break it off, but it's too late.

I still don't think even that moment of weakness jives with the Luke we know, the one who refused to fight back even as he was being tortured to death in the hopes that his father would be redeemed. I'm not saying he couldn't arrive at the point, the movie just gives us nothing to explain how it would have happened.

Tomahawk wrote:

As for Del Toro/Phoenix. That's the only missed opportunity for me. You're wrong. Obviously, they'd have to go agains the whole betrayal part, but Lando

I'm really hoping they bring Lando in for IX. At this point the Resistance is made up of thirty people and one ship, they need a new financial backer.

Tomahawk wrote:

I'm actually interested in what exactly threw you off.

Texture and weight, mainly. The casino race horses especially just felt like they were a few iterations from being done. I never bought them as part of the world. Yoda's weirdness also threw me but I think I can accept him. Re: the sabers looking more realistic, you're definitely the expert here so I'll say you're probably right. I guess I just don't like the "realistic" look when it comes to daylight shots. (Especially on the salt planet.)

Tomahawk wrote:

TFA, IMO, played it way too safe. Sure, you might call it a remake of ANH, which it isn't, but TLJ took a LOT of chances, delivered, and for the most part, threw us off with a lot of fake outs, such as Finn and Leias' death scenes.

I'm on record as saying TFA is way more nuanced than people give it credit for and the "remake" argument is really overblown, but I'll save that for a different thread. wink

Last edited by DarthPraxus (2017-12-15 20:53:05)

Re: The Last Jedi [SPOILERS]

DarthPraxus wrote:

I still don't think even that moment of weakness jives with the Luke we know, the one who refused to fight back even as he was being tortured to death in the hopes that his father would be redeemed. I'm not saying he couldn't arrive at the point, the movie just gives us nothing to explain how it would have happened.

It's been 20+ years. Talk to me again in 20 years, and tell me nothing has changed wink


DarthPraxus wrote:

Texture and weight, mainly. The casino race horses especially just felt like they were a few iterations from being done. I never bought them as part of the world. Yoda's weirdness also threw me but I think I can accept him. Re: the sabers looking more realistic, you're definitely the expert here so I'll say you're probably right. I guess I just don't like the "realistic" look when it comes to daylight shots. (Especially on the salt planet.)

Fathiers.

Tomahawk Ellingsen

www.extendededition.net

Re: The Last Jedi [SPOILERS]

I was softly chanting "Lando Lando Lando!" to Steph as Maz was describing the guy. Disappointed it wasn't him but the guy worked out great.

I loved Rose and was so pissed when it seemed at first that they were going to kill her, just to keep the three main protagonists in IX. She's a great character, keeping things grounded now that our grounded protagonists from TFA have been uplifted to hero status.

The casino horses felt a liiiiitle over the top to me but not by much. Meanwhile the first couple shots of Yoda seemed to me that they were probably CG, and moreover channeling some of his look from the Clone Wars series, which if intentional I really appreciated. In close-up, it felt like the same old Yoda - in look, mannerism and voice - as the spunky old hermit on Dagobah.

Boter, formerly of TF.N as Boter and DarthArjuna. I like making movies and playing games, in one order or another.

Re: The Last Jedi [SPOILERS]

I was still shouting Lando when the sentence "I can do that" was uttered, as I'd completely forgotten about Del Toro being cast tongue

Tomahawk Ellingsen

www.extendededition.net

Re: The Last Jedi [SPOILERS]

I was legit confused when it wasn't him when it panned over.

Boter, formerly of TF.N as Boter and DarthArjuna. I like making movies and playing games, in one order or another.

Re: The Last Jedi [SPOILERS]

Tomahawk wrote:
DarthPraxus wrote:

I still don't think even that moment of weakness jives with the Luke we know, the one who refused to fight back even as he was being tortured to death in the hopes that his father would be redeemed. I'm not saying he couldn't arrive at the point, the movie just gives us nothing to explain how it would have happened.

It's been 20+ years. Talk to me again in 20 years, and tell me nothing has changed wink

*buzzer*

The principle of your argument is "pretty much anything could happen to a character in twenty years, and so pretty much any giant character change that suits some recently-contrived plot should be accepted uncritically." Prax is playin' by screenwriting rules; you're playin' by real-life rules. Sure, in real life, I wouldn't be surprised to discover some guy friend I haven't seen in twenty years had — for instance — begun identifying as a woman at some point along the way; but, Prax is clearly talkin' about screenwriting rules (moreover, this whole community is generally talkin' about screenwriting rules) and I can't imagine a bigger violation of 'show don't tell' than telling-not-showing your audience "listen, you nosy person; Luke Skywalker has been a woman for quite some time now and you just need to shut the fuck up and respect her choices."

Yeah, in real life, that's how that works; in a screenplay, you earn events like growth and change or you don't.

EDIT:

Vague TFA spoilers: This is the same argument I was (poorly) making on EE's TFA commentary, when Eddie was justifying Han Solo suddenly becoming a passive imbecile during (and only during) a single fateful moment by saying, essentially, 'fatherhood changes a person inexplicably!' Of course it does; but are we rather quite sure that this particular change which justifies only this particular plot point isn't just a horseshit contrivance to deliver a 'moment?' I know that Changes Comma Generally can and do happen to all people as time passes, and I'd accept Han Solo Comma Generally Changed as a result of that — but if he's gonna be essentially the same dude in all other ways, and only exhibit his Changes Comma General when the script specifically needs it...

We'd never accept that with a non-character contrivance, and I think the primary difference is... well, nothing.

It's just not defensible on a screenwriting level, in my dumb-ass opinion.

Teague Chrystie

I have a tendency to fix your typos.

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Re: The Last Jedi [SPOILERS]

Fair point, but I think even by screenwriting rules it works.

Luke has been tempted before. He sliced his Dad's arm off in rage before realizing he was going too far. I don't think it's improbable that he still struggles - being on the side of the light is portrayed as an ongoing battle, not a one-and-done.

He didn't slice off Ben's arm before realizing he was about to go too far. I'd call that progress from the last time we saw him, not regression.

Boter, formerly of TF.N as Boter and DarthArjuna. I like making movies and playing games, in one order or another.

Re: The Last Jedi [SPOILERS]

But him slicing his dad's arm off was immediately followed by the act of pure selflessness and restraint that was tossing away his saber and refusing to fight. And if he could do that after he'd watched this man blow up a planet, slice his hand off, torture his friends, and threaten to turn his sister, you really think he'd fall back into bad habits when he saw that his best friend's son could have a bad future? Especially after what happened the last time he tried to change the future based on a Force vision?

I'm not buying it. If something legitimately terrible had happened to him to send him sliding back down into fear and anger, sure. But Rian never shows us that. And if you're gonna say Luke Skywalker almost murdered his best friend's son you have to come correct.

EDIT: best friend's nephew? Jesus, me. Wording fixed.

Last edited by DarthPraxus (2017-12-15 23:31:43)

Re: The Last Jedi [SPOILERS]

After the intense climactic battle between Kylo and Luke; it cuts to Luke on the island, now bathed in orange light, out of breath and looking into the distance, for a split second I thought 'if the reverse shot turns out that he is looking at a Porg - I'm throwing my popcorn over my head and storming out".   yikes

Thank you for being a sun.  tongue

Hurroo

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Re: The Last Jedi [SPOILERS]

Having seen it twice, I found it much stronger on the second viewing. On the first time round I found the Laura Dern / Battlestar Galactica plot line to be the weakest aspect but looking at it again, It was actually the Poe story arc that let's the side down.

I really like the idea of doing a plot where the heroes don't trust the leadership so come up with their own scheme to save the day, only to fuck up. Unfortunately the film tries to portray Poe as too cocky and taking too many risks because, apparently if you start an attack you should finish it, but it doesn't stick the landing. The pay off is supposed to be in the base at the end where he leads everyone towards the back door to escape and Princess Leia is all "Don't look at me, he knows what's what!"

But for me, as an arc it doesn't quite come together. If it had been Poe who wanted to fly up the cannon, and not Finn and then realises he should lead everyone out it would have closed the arc nicely, as it is, it is just another storyline too many.

A lot of people take issue with Rose and Finn nipping off to the casino but I rather enjoyed that whole sequence, although it was remarkably lucky that they ended up in exactly the same cell as someone who could not only help them but also open the door and yet had not already done so.

The main critersism from people who didn't like it seem to be about Luke. I can see why Mark Hamill said it wasn't how he pictured Luke but I think it works. He had a moment of weakness and regrets it.

I loved the Yoda scene, it was everything I was hoping for with the movie, I've no idea why the prequels ignored that side of the mythology.

The Porgs were great, the humour fit the scene, and was surprisingly dark in places. The porg jumping on the saber hilt as the other one starred ignorantly down the business end was hilarious, as was Chewie trying to enjoy a quiet dinner.

Rey's plot was built on nicely from The Force Awakens. It was more than simply Luke training her exactly as we'd seen before, although I do think she is doing very well for someone who has not even had a youtube tutorial in the force to follow.

The darkside cave was cleverly done yet different from what we'd seen before and I thought the revelation about her parentage was brilliantly handled. I love that the force can come to anyone in this galaxy and not just those with the right bloodline.

Luke's stand off against Kylo was nicely handled, it reminded me of an old joke from Digital Llama Radio about a role-playing group with a Jedi taking on AT-AT's (ignore this if you are not Teague or Owen)

Part of me was hoping Luke would simply push all the walkers over with one wave of his hand. Why do they need to redesign everything all the time? They should call these new ones MON-KEE Walkers (what? Chicken walker stuck!)

Luke's dying felt unfair after the twist of his not actually have been there, although they did set it up when Kylo tells Rey "You didn't do this, the effort would have killed you".

I can't decide how I'd rank this against Rogue One and The Force Awakens, R1 took a few viewings to grow on me and I loved TFA from the start.

I'm sure you could snip ten or twenty minutes out of The Last Jedi and have a stronger and more focussed film but it's far from being the mess that some fans are whinging about.

Roll on the Han Solo movie, Episode IX and Johnson's trilogy!

Extended Edition - 139 The EE Christmas Panto!
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Re: The Last Jedi [SPOILERS]

I liked it. Disney executives have shown some balls by greenlighting this script. One of the main strengths of the OT was its "white hat, black hat" fairytale sincerity. TLJ, on the other hand, dared to be very self-conscious and to deconstruct some aspects of Star Wars that we've taken for granted before.

Those Pikachu penguins (Porgs) were a little too cartoony at times (especially the one that gave Chewie the Puss In Boots eyes), but at least they didn't have any effect on the plot (unlike the Ewoks and the Gungans). I didn't mind them.

We all float down here...

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Re: The Last Jedi [SPOILERS]

I liked it. They put a lot of effort into developing these new characters and I like where it's going. I also like that they didn't play into the expected tropes and did their own thing.

I do, however, have some things I didn't like, here are my main complaints:
-This isn't the Luke Skywalker I wanted. Him pulling his lightsaber on Ben, even for a brief moment, undermines the person he becomes at the end of RotJ.
-This movie is long as fuck, but also the timeline of the chase means they can't take the pressure off, so it feels frantic and drawn out simultaneously, it's exhausting.
-Hyperdrive continues to get more powerful. Why don't ships kamikaze all the time? Seems effective if you're on the losing end of a battle or you ship is going to get blown up anyway.

"ShadowDuelist is a god."
        -Teague Chrystie

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Re: The Last Jedi [SPOILERS]

Definitely plays better on a second viewing. The sheer boldness of the unique choices Johnson made stands out a lot more. Luke's attempted murder of Ben Solo still doesn't wash. Romance is still forced. Casino setpiece is still the weakest link. Also, I think I figured out my problem with the fathiers—it's not so much the animation on them itself as the really dodgy compositing on Finn and Rose as they're riding them.

"Blow that piece of junk OUT OF THE SKY" is the single best line reading of 2017. Adam Driver might be the best performer of the entire franchise, and even though neither of them will get one I think he and Mark both deserve nominations for Best Supporting Actor.

Last edited by DarthPraxus (2017-12-17 06:27:35)