Re: The Empire Strikes Back

Dorkman wrote:

I just understood that Artoo was basically going "Oh, yeah, totally. Dagobah. That sounds like a great and not at all crazy plan. Golly, that's a long way off, and you've had a long day. Why don't you let me fly and just take a nap or something?" With the full intention of basically commandeering the X-Wing, going to the rendezvous, and maybe getting 2-1B to check Luke's brain again.

Even the droid that can't talk has subtext in this movie. Goddammit Hollywood, this is how you do it.
.


Ya, I think your reading too much into that one.

And another thin, not to start a war or anything, but your comment above about how Lucas
says he didnt like ESB and how the prequels sucked and how George just doesnt know how
Star Wars should be made,

well I just have to say this. It is his idea, his brainchild. If he wants to make movies that all the original
fans seem to hate, that is his perogative. I personally like the prequels just as much as the original
movies, I like all 6 of them equally, they tell a story, regardless of how bad or good the casting might
be or script was, it was still a good story and it is fine IMO.
I can watch a movie and if there is something that doesnt work or fit, minor stuff, I can just
imagine it the way I felt it should be, so I dont get disapointed with it.
Not that there isnt times with movies were I want to yell at the screen, lol

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Re: The Empire Strikes Back

mkeithddc wrote:
Dorkman wrote:

I just understood that Artoo was basically going "Oh, yeah, totally. Dagobah. That sounds like a great and not at all crazy plan. Golly, that's a long way off, and you've had a long day. Why don't you let me fly and just take a nap or something?" With the full intention of basically commandeering the X-Wing, going to the rendezvous, and maybe getting 2-1B to check Luke's brain again.

Even the droid that can't talk has subtext in this movie. Goddammit Hollywood, this is how you do it.
.


Ya, I think your reading too much into that one.

And another thin, not to start a war or anything, but your comment above about how Lucas
says he didnt like ESB and how the prequels sucked and how George just doesnt know how
Star Wars should be made,

well I just have to say this. It is his idea, his brainchild. If he wants to make movies that all the original
fans seem to hate, that is his perogative. I personally like the prequels just as much as the original
movies, I like all 6 of them equally, they tell a story, regardless of how bad or good the casting might
be or script was, it was still a good story and it is fine IMO.
I can watch a movie and if there is something that doesnt work or fit, minor stuff, I can just
imagine it the way I felt it should be, so I dont get disapointed with it.
Not that there isnt times with movies were I want to yell at the screen, lol

1. I hardly think he's reading too much into it. Luke's clearly answering a request to put the ship on autopilot, and Artoo is clearly nervous about the whole endeavor. Perfectly reasonable of Dorkman to make that inference, and rather clever too, I thought.

2. Doesn't matter if it's his brainchild—the original trilogy is what it is because he was forced to compromise and let other people show him what the best choices to make were. No one is saying it's not his prerogative to make the films he wants to make, we're just saying it's unfortunate that those films kinda suck.

3. "No matter how bad the script was, it's still a good story"? Seems kinda contradictory (though I'll concede there can occasionally be a good story buried beneath awful dialogue). And in any event, it wasn't a good story—as pointed out in the FIYH commentaries time and again, there is no compelling character motivation, an excess of illogical decisions, and no real emotion at all. Also, a bad script is hardly "minor stuff". And your saying that "you can imagine the way it should be, so you aren't disappointed" is precisely the reason that you should be disappointed. What it should have been wasn't what we got, which can only mean that we got what it shouldn't have been. And I don't see how you can say that and still insist it's not bad filmmaking.

Last edited by Abbie (2014-03-03 03:41:22)

Re: The Empire Strikes Back

I was watching the commentary, and someone says, maybe Trey, that "lea can remember her
mother in these movies, proof that Lucas was making it up as he goes along"

I dont get it, because of course she would say she has a mother and father
she remembers, she was given to a married couple, Jimmy Smits and wife,
and raised as their own, so as far as Lea is concerned those were her parents.

It isnt till the end of episode 6 that she telepathically finds out that Vader is her father
and Luke is the brother.

abd as far as having lea and luke kiss in 4 and 5, Lucas couldhave still known that he was
going to make them twins in the 6th movie, because they wouldnt know they were twins,
and even if it might be creepy for the viewer(I dotn have a problem with it), it would
be normal for them to show their affection like non twins, lol

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Re: The Empire Strikes Back

mkeithddc wrote:

I was watching the commentary, and someone says, maybe Trey, that "lea can remember her
mother in these movies, proof that Lucas was making it up as he goes along"

I dont get it, because of course she would say she has a mother and father
she remembers, she was given to a married couple, Jimmy Smits and wife,
and raised as their own, so as far as Lea is concerned those were her parents.

It isnt till the end of episode 6 that she telepathically finds out that Vader is her father
and Luke is the brother.

abd as far as having lea and luke kiss in 4 and 5, Lucas couldhave still known that he was
going to make them twins in the 6th movie, because they wouldnt know they were twins,
and even if it might be creepy for the viewer(I dotn have a problem with it), it would
be normal for them to show their affection like non twins, lol

1. Luke specifically says "Your real mother." Leia knew she was adopted.

2. What do you mean "telepathically finds out"? Luke tells her. No telepathy.

3. The plain fact is that Lucas didn't. Go read the early story treatments for ROTJ.

Re: The Empire Strikes Back

Darth Praxus wrote:

1. I hardly think he's reading too much into it. Luke's clearly answering a request to put the ship on autopilot, and Artoo is clearly nervous about the whole endeavor. Perfectly reasonable of Dorkman to make that inference, and rather clever too, I thought.

2. Doesn't matter if it's his brainchild—the original trilogy is what it is because he was forced to compromise and let other people show him what the best choices to make were. No one is saying it's not his prerogative to make the films he wants to make, we're just saying it's unfortunate that those films kinda suck.

3. "No matter how bad the script was, it's still a good story"? Seems kinda contradictory. And a bad script is hardly "minor stuff". And your saying that "you can imagine the way it should be, so you aren't disappointed" is precisely the reason that you should be disappointed. What it should have been wasn't what we got, which can only mean that we got what it shouldn't have been. And I don't see how you can say that and still insist it's not bad filmmaking.

dont know why you would be answering for someone else but, ok.
anyway, let me clarify, I, me, personally have NO PROBLEM with anyof the star wars movies.
Any amount of aurguing with me about it will get no where, and I will just say you are wrong
about the prequels and its only your opinion, so lets just drop it, like I said, no wars over this.

"No matter how bad the script was, it's still a good story"? Seems kinda contradictory.

Um, no, its not contradictory at all, a story os the general concept, the braod strokes, the script
is the details, the dialoge and characters, one can like the big picture, and not the execution.
When I was talking about having not the best movie and still a good story, that was in general,
not specific. But of course you can have a good story without perfect movie.

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Re: The Empire Strikes Back

Darth Praxus wrote:

1. Luke specifically says "Your real mother." Leia knew she was adopted.

2. What do you mean "telepathically finds out"? Luke tells her. No telepathy.

3. The plain fact is that Lucas didn't. Go read the early story treatments for ROTJ.

What movie are you watching, in the end of 6, lukes like "Im your Brother", and she
was like, "I know, I think Ive always known", leia, is part jedi, so she could
sense lukes and Vaders feelings.

"Go read the early Treatmeants", um no, dont care what wasnt filmed, what is on
celluloid is what is period. no books or"expanded universe", I am not a fanboy,
I watch movies, sorry.

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Re: The Empire Strikes Back

mkeithddc wrote:
Darth Praxus wrote:

1. Luke specifically says "Your real mother." Leia knew she was adopted.

2. What do you mean "telepathically finds out"? Luke tells her. No telepathy.

3. The plain fact is that Lucas didn't. Go read the early story treatments for ROTJ.

What movie are you watching, in the end of 6, lukes like "Im your Brother", and she
was like, "I know, I think Ive always known", leia, is part jedi, so she could
sense lukes and Vaders feelings.

"Go read the early Treatmeants", um no, dont care what wasnt filmed, what is on
celluloid is what is period. no books or"expanded universe", I am not a fanboy,
I watch movies, sorry.

Don't want to turn this into a flame war, so this is the last post I'll make on the subject, but:

1. Okay, that's fine, but that wasn't your statement. You said that "It wasn't until the end of ROTJ that she found out telepathically". And in any event she never knew about Vader being her father until Luke told her.

2.  I'm not talking about the EU. I'm talking about Lucas's early story treatments for ROTJ, before the film was in production.

Last edited by Abbie (2014-03-03 04:00:04)

Re: The Empire Strikes Back

Darth Praxus wrote:
mkeithddc wrote:
Darth Praxus wrote:

1. Luke specifically says "Your real mother." Leia knew she was adopted.

2. What do you mean "telepathically finds out"? Luke tells her. No telepathy.

3. The plain fact is that Lucas didn't. Go read the early story treatments for ROTJ.

What movie are you watching, in the end of 6, lukes like "Im your Brother", and she
was like, "I know, I think Ive always known", leia, is part jedi, so she could
sense lukes and Vaders feelings.

"Go read the early Treatmeants", um no, dont care what wasnt filmed, what is on
celluloid is what is period. no books or"expanded universe", I am not a fanboy,
I watch movies, sorry.


Don't want to turn this into a flame war, so this is the last post I'll make on the subject, but:

1. Okay, that's fine, but that wasn't your statement. You said that "It wasn't until the end of ROTJ that she found out telepathically". And in any event she never knew about Vader being her father until Luke told her.

2.  I'm not talking about the EU. I'm talking about Lucas's early story treatments for ROTJ, before the film was in production.


Indeed. I get so much out of reading the early drafts (the making of books are fantastic references for this) and seeing what plot lines go where and how things all pull together is so interesting to me. It sheds more light on to the process of creating the finished work. Star Wars has become more interesting to me the more I learn about it and the process that it took to create it.

There is a lot of inference that comes with the OT that isn't explicitly said in the movie itself. Reading behind the scenes stuff can give a better understanding of the creative mind. Which is one place where we can say that Lucas had certain intentions, likes and dislikes, as well as ideas that never went any where.

I was never completely on board with the prequels in comparison to the OT. I don't want to turn this in to a "OT vs. PT" war, because that will never win. But, there is a very different tone in the PT vs. the OT that makes the OT feel more grounded and limited and gives the world more credence. R2 being skeptical of Luke's plan is a good example because we are never told what R2 says, yet we can infer possibilities. You know, as Dorkman said, subtext.

The PT never really had that kind of subtext or limits. It just puts the images up there and calls it good. It looks really, really pretty, but it isn't gripping like the OT. At least for me.

God loves you!

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Re: The Empire Strikes Back

As long as this thread is open again, I had a thought regarding the "footprint in the snow". We all know these films were changed in the editing room, sometimes quite a bit. Is it at all possible that, according to the original shot list, that scene of the AT-AT's foot coming down WAS first? That it was later changed for pacing reasons? Whatever the intentions of the FX people, that all gets thrown out the window once things get deep into post production.

I write stories! With words!
http://www.asstr.org/~Invid_Fan/

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Re: The Empire Strikes Back

Huh.

Good thought.

Teague Chrystie

I have a tendency to fix your typos.

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Re: The Empire Strikes Back

mkeithddc wrote:

Ya, I think your reading too much into that one.

Wait, didn't you make a post in the Sunshine thread about how the shitty tilt camera effect was a reflection of how time and space had been warped around Pinbacker?

Imagination will often carry us to worlds that never were. But without it we go nowhere. - Carl Sagan

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Re: The Empire Strikes Back

Invid wrote:

As long as this thread is open again, I had a thought regarding the "footprint in the snow". We all know these films were changed in the editing room, sometimes quite a bit. Is it at all possible that, according to the original shot list, that scene of the AT-AT's foot coming down WAS first? That it was later changed for pacing reasons? Whatever the intentions of the FX people, that all gets thrown out the window once things get deep into post production.

Could be, sure.  Also, bear in mind that neither Phil Tippett nor I watch Empire Strikes Back a lot, and we're both very old.   He may have mis-remembered the shot order, or I may have misquoted him in the retelling.

But what IS for sure is that Phil pointed out that shot as an example of the concept, and I think the concept is valid.   I've applied it in projects since, and explained it to someone just three days ago. smile

Re: The Empire Strikes Back

redxavier wrote:
mkeithddc wrote:

Ya, I think your reading too much into that one.

Wait, didn't you make a post in the Sunshine thread about how the shitty tilt camera effect was a reflection of how time and space had been warped around Pinbacker?


yes I did, Its right from the directors commentary, which the bluray hasdanny boyle
and one with scientist that did all the consulting.

what is your point?

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Re: The Empire Strikes Back

fireproof78 wrote:

Indeed. I get so much out of reading the early drafts (the making of books are fantastic references for this) and seeing what plot lines go where and how things all pull together is so interesting to me. It sheds more light on to the process of creating the finished work. Star Wars has become more interesting to me the more I learn about it and the process that it took to create it.


This is why stick to the movies, I am a film buff, not a Star Wars buff, know what I mean?
You guys are talkng about stuff that I have no knowledge of, early treatments and whatever,
I have never been into that stuff with any movie. Just like to listen how it was made and all,
not what could have been done different with the story,
To me, once a movie has been made, and sometimes there are directors cuts, but not counting
that, once its done, that story is set in stone to me. I dont cry about how this character didnt have this
arc or this makeup wasnt quite right. whatever, I fill in the rest with my imagination. like reading a
book. But like I said, I like to listen to commentaries when people are talking about who this or that
effect was done, thats my thing.

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Re: The Empire Strikes Back

mkeithddc wrote:

yes I did, Its right from the directors commentary, which the bluray hasdanny boyle
and one with scientist that did all the consulting.

what is your point?

I don't recall that being the explanation at all. My point was that on the one hand you're really reaching with that explanation (using knowledge from outside the movie as well) and then here you're questioning what is a perfectly valid interpretation of a scene.

Imagination will often carry us to worlds that never were. But without it we go nowhere. - Carl Sagan

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Re: The Empire Strikes Back

redxavier wrote:
mkeithddc wrote:

yes I did, Its right from the directors commentary, which the bluray hasdanny boyle
and one with scientist that did all the consulting.

what is your point?

I don't recall that being the explanation at all. My point was that on the one hand you're really reaching with that explanation (using knowledge from outside the movie as well) and then here you're questioning what is a perfectly valid interpretation of a scene.

Sorry you forgot about the a plot point of a movie, but I wasn't making
anything up, just relaying info. 
There is nothing wrong with tring to inturpet a scene, but I just disagree
with what was said about it. And it wasn't the same as mine, he did
make his up out of his own imagination. I didn't.

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Re: The Empire Strikes Back

mkeithddc wrote:

And it wasn't the same as mine, he did
make his up out of his own imagination. I didn't.

LOLOLOLOLOL are you seriously saying that any interpretation you don't agree with is totally invalid?

"The Doctor is Submarining through our brains." --Teague

Twitter | Tumblr, for links to all my writing.

Re: The Empire Strikes Back

mkeithddc wrote:
fireproof78 wrote:

Indeed. I get so much out of reading the early drafts (the making of books are fantastic references for this) and seeing what plot lines go where and how things all pull together is so interesting to me. It sheds more light on to the process of creating the finished work. Star Wars has become more interesting to me the more I learn about it and the process that it took to create it.


This is why stick to the movies, I am a film buff, not a Star Wars buff, know what I mean?
You guys are talkng about stuff that I have no knowledge of, early treatments and whatever,
I have never been into that stuff with any movie. Just like to listen how it was made and all,
not what could have been done different with the story,
To me, once a movie has been made, and sometimes there are directors cuts, but not counting
that, once its done, that story is set in stone to me. I dont cry about how this character didnt have this
arc or this makeup wasnt quite right. whatever, I fill in the rest with my imagination. like reading a
book. But like I said, I like to listen to commentaries when people are talking about who this or that
effect was done, thats my thing.

I certainly am not one to comment on people's imaginings regarding movies as I do this A LOT. However, part of the fill in comes in from production information, behind the scenes, deleted scenes and the novelizations. The movie is a richer experience for me from this information.

By the way, even though this is an ESB thread, I do not know as much about the BTS of that movie as I do on say Star Trek, Chronicles of Riddick or Lord of the Rings. So, there is always potential to learn and grow beyond the set story, if that makes sense.

It is a level of movie criticism that goes in to story structure, production and the like. ESB has very high production value in the fact that there is so much detail, model work, make up, story and the like. Because the bar is set so high by ESB for Star Wars film that it makes the prequels all the more dim in comparison, regardless of other criticisms.

I don't cry over movies getting details wrong as much as I cry over missed opportunities for the film to be greater.

God loves you!

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Re: The Empire Strikes Back

And in other news:
https://scontent-b-sea.xx.fbcdn.net/hphotos-prn1/t1/1979670_707717109279893_234225973_n.jpg

God loves you!

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Re: The Empire Strikes Back

Oh, the agony of being 7 years too young to have said "I was there".

Also, I'd had been an infant, but still.

Tomahawk Ellingsen

www.extendededition.net

96

Re: The Empire Strikes Back

Joe Johnston's Super 8 animation footage

Re: The Empire Strikes Back

A slave Leia equivalent for zoophiles? May the horse be with you...
http://pbs.twimg.com/media/DrgGQxGUwAEDiKz.jpg

We all float down here...

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