So, this was linked to on Whedonesque (someone else beat me to it), and the responses to it kind of mirror mine, but I'm nowhere near as harsh about it: There's some unfortunate, revisionist history going on here, coming from a group who don't seem to know much about it in the first place, didn't bother doing research but speak with such passion and authority, it's at least fun and enjoyable to listen to, if nothing else than to instigate some interesting discussions.
Boy, that was a hell of a long, run-on sentence. Sorry. Anyway....
The biggest issue here is regarding Dollhouse. Joss Whedon created that show. Eliza had a production deal with 20th Century Fox. She wanted to work with Joss again, so she invited him to lunch and they were just talking about how this business is all about trying to be someone else for other people and how she's trying to find and maintain her own identity through all that. She had also recently witnessed the struggles and triumphs of former child slaves and child soldiers in Uganda.
As they were talking about all of these things, the wheels started turning inside Joss's head, he excused himself to the restroom and when he came back he said, "It's going to be called Dollhouse and this is what it's going to be about". He then proceeded to lay it out for her and they used some of those points together to build this vehicle for Eliza so she could play all of the roles that she was never able to play before because Hollywood is very narrow-minded and short-sighted.
Dollhouse was their baby. It's okay if you spent a day with that baby and decided the baby was boring or obnoxious and you didn't want to spend anymore time with it. I get that. Dollhouse was a very cerebral show, dealing with very dark, heavy subject matter that not everyone wants to sit down with a big bucket of popcorn and watch/listen to/think about. If I had to rank Whedon's TV work, I would put Dollhouse at the bottom. Not because I think it's terrible. I do like the show, but I don't love it. While most are quick to point a finger at Fox (the network) as the saboteur, I think the problems with the show are more internal and fundamentally flawed and conceptually wonky, but that's a lengthy discussion for another time.
I did very much enjoy this episode, and I'll conclude my thoughts with this, which I copied from my comments posted on Whedoesque about this:
"I feel it's a bit snobby to dismiss what these guys are saying because they're not rabid Buffy or Dollhouse fans. There are Joss fans of all shapes and sizes and colors. Some love all of it, some love only certain parts of it. You can apply that to just about anything.
Beyond that, I would also argue this episode is worth listening to through completion. Once they get past the talk of Whedon's early TV work (and how much of it they haven't seen), not only do they get into what they have seen (Firefly and his feature film work, namely Twister and Serenity), but it's all about how much they totally love it and why. They talk about what makes Joss such a solid, efficient writer.
I've been listening to these guys for a couple years now. So they've not seen Buffy (except for Eddie, who has seen all of that show and loves it) and didn't care for the few episodes they've seen of Dollhouse. Big deal. A lot of people are in the same boat and that's okay. Personally, I'm still interested in what they have to say."
I also feel these comments made by two separate folks over there are worth mentioning:
"Oh, I have nothing against the fact that they aren't fans. I don't like that they make judgements and discuss things they don't know about. And I agree that their discussion gets more interesting after the first 7 or 8 minutes.
I never mind when someone doesn't like something, on 3 conditions.
One: They give it a chance
Two: They have actual criticism or reason behind thier dislike
Three: They don't talk as if they're experts on the subject and why it's terrible after only seeing a small portion (or none) of the work."
2nd commenter:
"Wow, what? Joss didn't know Dollhouse was about slaves until later? And he didn't even create it, it was Eliza's idea she brought to him? I don't have a problem listening to opinions that oppose my own on podcasts - in fact I do it all the time - but this makes me crazy. Get your facts straight and maybe I'll listen to your podcast. I couldn't even get through 4 minutes of it."
