I don't think it is either, in a vacuum. I'm talking about my flawed perception, and like I said up front on this tangent, it might just be that video games are too new and my notion of what "can" be art is flawed.

However, in response to your going back to comparing games to paintings, I re-invoke my thing about maybe it's the difference between one artist and not four hundred. I'd consider cave paintings art before games as a whole. The matte painting in the background of a game is on a level playing field with a cave painting.

Actually, I think JayHair and Mike will be pleased with our commentary. We're quite fair on the thing.

You know, I can get myself locked up in all these argumentative, hypothetical "proofs" inside of this conversation and agree with basically anything.

At the end of the day, it might just be too recent.

But I don't think of video games as art. Not really. They might be, someone can make a very compelling case. The difference between the least and most artistic games seems too small, compared to the difference between something your kid drew and the Mona Lisa, for anything to be that-much-more artistic than anything else in the game world.

I'll already agree with the dissenters and say there are and can be very artistic games, yes. But I think they're more an emulation of art that has already happened. Once video games find what they're actually good for - not just simulating existing game types or filmic qualities - maybe then can games stretch their legs and become fucking art. Until then, they're just artfully created, by a lot of the same folks who make movies.

I should also go ahead and add now that, I've been thinking about it, and I can't think of a film I'd consider art, either. Beautiful, yes, tangible adjectives, naturally. Same with games. But I have trouble stretching my definition of "art" to include what's going on in the realm of cinema and gaming.

That's just me - but the more I think about it, and I'm not done thinking, the more I think art should be created by an artist, maybe two artists. Not four hundred.

We can do five folks on the board without splitting mics between multiple people, but on a movie where everyone has something to say at every moment, like Serenity, five folks trying to get air time might be more pain than its worth to listen to.

Chinatown and Rush Hour are great suggestions.

Wow. If the wider forum doesn't screw it up when you view it with the left DIF bar (bottom picture), I'm happy to adopt that style.

*tear*