526

(208 replies, posted in Episodes)

Actually no. The spaceships get LAUNCHED in a way that prevents them from blowing up over population centers. They get BUILT to satisfy the inane demands of Congressional earmarking. Big difference.

Naval shipyards on the other hand, are often based in major population centers - New York City, Philadelphia, Norfolk, San Diego, etc. (Not that defense spending isn't subject to Congressional hijinks, but the location of the Navy's shipyards have been subject to less than what NASA's operations are typically forced to endure).

EDIT: There are more factors involved than just proximity to population centers. Titusville is a nice little bump on the east coast of Florida in the middle of a nature preserve. The bump and nature preserve aspect are good for the population center concern. But it's Florida in the first place because the closer you get to the equator, the less energy you need to get to orbit. There's a whole business called Sea Launch that uses a mobile floating launch platform to launch rockets from the ocean, meaning you can get right up onto the equator for maximum efficiency and flexibility. Same reason the European Space Agency's launch facilities are in French Guina - at the top of South America - it's as close as they can get to the equator.

downinfront wrote:

Eh, listen to the show again, I certainly remember your story complaints, but the nitpicks were levvied with either more force or more frequency.

Maybe I will, don't know if I want to honestly. I did and have been making a conscious effort to avoid devolving into strictly that, since I know it won't produce any desirable result. Fat lot of good it's done, though.

527

(208 replies, posted in Episodes)

I'm pointing out the fact that there's a difference between actual nitpicks that bug me as a fan just because they're different (where the ship gets built) and the legitimate issues I have with the story.

And again trying to point out that most of this time I haven't been harping on the nitpicks. But that point is still apparently lost on everyone.

528

(208 replies, posted in Episodes)

maul2 wrote:
Jeffery Harrell wrote:

Hell, I'm still bothered by the fact that a bunch of cadets were hanging out in a bar a thousand miles away from campus for absolutely no reason other than so Jim Kirk could meet them.

I actually have an answer for this one!

You seem to be forgetting that this particular bar is no more than a stones throw away from where the cadets will be leaving for basically what amounts to military school the next day and not to mention a massive Starfleet shipyard. Perhaps you can explain why a group of young cadets stuck in some bumhick town with one night of freedom left, wouldn't find the nearest bar and live it up. Keeping in mind that this is a bumhick town, there probably is only the one bar, which we are led to believe Kirk frequents quite a bit. So that takes care of him. Next up, Pike.
We are led to believe that Pike is a fairly intelligent man who's been around Starfleet for a while, you don't think he might want to check in on his newest recruits, juuuuuust in case what happened happens? And hell there's only one bar, so it won't take to long.

Decent enough for you?

Not really. Why is the Enterprise being built in Riverside, as opposed to San Francisco as has already been established? Other than so it's coincidentally close enough for Kirk to go look at it?

But THAT would be nitpicking and me being some irredeemably obsessed fan that dares question the quality of the new Trek. And then the jocks would never invite me to their parties.

529

(208 replies, posted in Episodes)

Agreed. Much better to have them start walking down the mountain, cut to them at the bottom with Aragorn et al. waiting for them. No more screen time taken up and much less of a contrivance.

530

(208 replies, posted in Episodes)

Kyle, I've pointed out specifically the sequences of events that don't add up. So has Jeffrey. And I've fully admitted that none of them grabbed me sufficiently to make me come out of the movie going, "That was awful!" I LIKED it when I first walked out of the theater.

But you're correct, the Eagles ARE a HUGE deus ex machina. Do I still enjoy those movies? Sure. But it's still a bad way to end. On Tolkien's part as well as Jackson, though I could be mistaken, but doesn't Tolkien justify it in some way? Like the Eagles had fled Middle Earth because of the growing evil or something like that? I don't remember.

And you can nitpick the plots of almost any narrative. Because almost all narratives aren't perfect. Because narrative is really hard to do. Doesn't mean I'm going to give anybody a pass (which includes myself by the way).

But it's a movie commentary podcast, so I'm going to call out failings in movies where I see them.

EDIT: Oh, I'm actually leaving the computer for awhile, to have dinner, watch Lost, and interact with humans in person. So you'll have full reign to bash me for being a nerd for several hours. Enjoy.

531

(208 replies, posted in Episodes)

Jeffrey Harrell wrote:

but it could've made sense, goddammit.

Fixed it for you.

532

(208 replies, posted in Episodes)

You're mistaking my point.

I don't mean that these things (Kirk getting the Enterprise, Luke getting the X-Wing) shouldn't happen. I mean that they should be better JUSTIFIED.

The way in which they happen should make more sense. The cause and effect of the human interactions should make more sense. Sometimes doing that is a line of dialogue, a small scene, and sometimes it's scrapping the entire sequence of events and starting over.

Star Wars needed one of the first two (and actually has something like it in the deleted scenes). Trek09 needed the third.

533

(208 replies, posted in Episodes)

Tell my wife I said, "Hello."

534

(208 replies, posted in Episodes)

Right, but my point in the commentary was that the the level of justification for your magic bean determines what genre your story exists in. If I levitate in midair, it's a fantasy. If I levitate after waving a wand, it's a wizard-style fantasy. If I levitate because I have an antigravity generator, it's science fiction. If I levitate because I'm actually at the center of a rotating space habitat, it's hard science fiction.

The neatness of Star Wars is that it mixed elements of fantasy and science fiction, but because it contains fantasy elements at all, it automatically lends itself to that common denominator of magic beans.

535

(208 replies, posted in Episodes)

"It's just a movie" should be the Godwin's Law of movie discussions.

Of course it's just a movie. It's still worth talking about. "It's just a movie" is another way of saying, "It's not worth talking about." If that's your opinion, fine, but perhaps you should refrain from participating in a movie commentary forum.

And, as we've already discussed, Star Wars is a space fantasy. The nature of the magic beans is far different. That being said, you're right! The fact that Luke gets an X-Wing and is a flight leader instead of Wedge or Biggs DOESN'T make sense. And it's a weakness in the story of Star Wars. And to be stronger, there SHOULD'VE been some justification of why Luke turns out to be the very last, desperate hope of the Rebels.

536

(208 replies, posted in Episodes)

Because Ryan and Mike kept the discussion on that topic!

I refuse to be pegged as some horrible cliche of a 1980's Star Trek fan because OTHER PEOPLE in the commentary kept the conversation on a particular topic. Agree or disagree with my point of view, but do not insinuate that I kept pounding the floor shouting "The Bussard collectors are the wrong color!" while everyone else was telling me to stop.

As for seeing ideas for a better villain, perhaps you've missed my several posts about how Nero could be a better villain.

Gregory Harbin wrote:

Don't get me wrong, I liked the commentary, and I liked that a critical face was turned towards it, but way too much of the commentary went towards you or people having to disagree with you.

Yeah, it's Star Trek and I'm one of the main guys on the podcast. Deal with it.

537

(208 replies, posted in Episodes)

Yes, because people trying to enjoy a movie in peace makes an EXCELLENT audio commentary.

The Villain's motivation making no sense is NOT the tiniest of nerd issues. I specifically didn't repeatedly harp on the nerdier stuff to not bog down the commentary with that. Besides, there's so much else wrong with the movie (like Kirk's rank ascendancy) that I didn't have time to.

If there was something that I didn't like as a Star Trek fan, I mentioned it, and unless someone asked me about it further, I didn't repeatedly beat that exact same point into the ground.

538

(208 replies, posted in Episodes)

Stop with the sanctimony, Greg. It's getting really old.

Yes, we all watched the movie. Yes, we all saw the same thing. Your point of view of certain events does not automatically equate with gospel simply because it is yours.

539

(208 replies, posted in Episodes)

And there are still, presumably, DOZENS of people on the Enterprise alone more qualified to command a starship than the guy that was 30 seconds from getting kicked out of the Academy.

540

(208 replies, posted in Episodes)

Oh shut up, Greg.

I'm not entirely sure you're not making that up, Jeffrey. But...okay.

But you're right, that's another HUGE problem with this movie. Like in the TFN post, Kirk goes from washout to stowaway to captain in the span of a day.

I just don't know what to critically say about that other than NO. NOOOOO. That's ludicrous on its face.

541

(208 replies, posted in Episodes)

But he can prevent it. He has the tool to prevent it - the red matter. Spock only failed to deliver that tool because he ran out of time - something which Nero now has an abundance of. He could easily go back to Romulus and fix it. Of course, that's neglecting the fact that turning a planet's sun into a black hole is still basically fucking that planet over good and hard. But NOOO, let's not yell at this Trek for fucking up basic science in such a cringe worthy way. That would be far too nerdy. And nerdy isn't cool. And we have to make sure the jocks like us.

Had there been a scene where he talks out his rationale, yes, it would've been better. It still wouldn't have been great per se, since it still doesn't make much sense. But at least that would've demonstrated some awareness on the part of the filmmakers.

But if that's the way we're looking at it, then when Spock shows up, Nero should be ecstatic. Not only does Spock bring the means to save his world, he also likely has the ability to get Nero and company back to the future. The movie basically says that Nero has a full on meltdown, resulting in his deranged obsession with hurting Spock. A deranged obsession that doesn't have Nero kill Spock when he has the chance. Or take any steps towards preventing the disaster he is now capable of preventing. But a derangement that is not so bad that he can't orchestrate some stunning scheme to destroy the Federation. Or bust out of a Klingon prison. Or lead a ship and crew at all without having a mutiny.

But he's deranged. Alright. You like your villains crazy, that's fine. Personally, I prefer my villains crazy smart.

542

(208 replies, posted in Episodes)

I don't remember that. Well, those ARE good episodes. True, not much blows up in them, a lack which IS the hallmark of bad drama.

543

(208 replies, posted in Episodes)

We never really got to handpicked episodes of TNG, only TOS. You've only watched pieces of a couple that I randomly wanted to watch on a given day. If you want me to show you the TNG-select, we can do that, but we haven't done it yet.

EDIT: Also, I'm not sure there are a ton of new characters besides Nero. There's Uhura's roommate, the crew of the Kelvin, and Chief Engineer Redshirt. Anybody else, at least anybody that's more substantial than those?

544

(208 replies, posted in Episodes)

Astroninja Studios wrote:

Maybe not in this thread Brian, but I do remember watching the DVD at the labs with you and specifically remember hearing you say at one point, "This isn't Star Trek."

So while you didn't say it here, I feel this is at the heart of your critique and it comes through wether you intend it to or not.

Even if I do feel that way and I haven't said under oath that I do, it's not a debatable issue. For me, the "heart" of Star Trek is one thing and for Trey, it's another.

I will submit that I don't think Trey ever gave TNG a chance. Lots of original fans hated TNG when it first came out. And with good reason, TNG was fucking STUPID when it first came out. But it got better. But I don't think Trey ever got that far. I recall on some commentary, though I forget which, Trey mentioning he watched the first few episodes of TNG when it came out, stopping, and never going back.

Which makes him only slightly better than one of those people who claim to know what's in the Constitution without ever actually reading it.

That's right, Trey! I called you a Teabagger!

*grumble*Don't talk to me about defending the prequels...*grumble*

Ultimately, I can rail about the ship, or the bridge, or the lens flares, or whatever. But those are issues of personal taste, and not really debatable. The only worthwhile point to make there is that I think there exists an aesthetic that could please me and the general audience. But that's still not really a debatable point. What isn't simply a matter of taste is the story, which is pretty shit.

And you can be okay with a mindless sequence of flashes for two hours, but I'm not okay with that for any movie. And emphatically so for Star Trek.

HITLER!

545

(208 replies, posted in Episodes)

I don't like this Trek because it's stupid. That's not to say that I think Trek hasn't been tremendously stupid at times throughout its history, both in TNG and the original series (and elsewhere).

But Trek, at its best, is both smart AND fun (including the original series).

My problem with this movie is the same as my problem with Transformers 2 and 2012 - there's a movie ABOUT something in there that's ALSO a "ride." The two are not mutually exclusive. I just happen to be more invested in Star Trek than Transformers or 2012.

Me being a fanboy has nothing to do with the nature of my criticism of this movie. It merely increases the depth of the same feelings engendered by its brethren - namely 2012, Transformers, and all the rest.

546

(6 replies, posted in Creations)

With a prime lens, thus the beauty in low light with shallow depth of field.

547

(208 replies, posted in Episodes)

Trey wrote:

'Cause I was a Trek Fanboy before any of y'all

Appeal to my authority!

548

(208 replies, posted in Episodes)

If you look carefully, you will see that nowhere have I made the argument that this "isn't Star Trek."

549

(208 replies, posted in Episodes)

Well I will steal Trey's thunderbirth and say right now that I know "Star Trek" started as straight pop adventure serials. But it became more and has the potential (like everything else) to be both fun AND smart at the same time.

And this new movie doesn't even make sense, let alone achieve the high bar of being a "smart" film.

Sorry, Trey.

550

(208 replies, posted in Episodes)

Someone on the TFN board asked me what my "ultimate Trek story" would be. So, crossposted from TFN:

I wrote:

I guess we never really ended up talking about what I would do differently in the commentary. I have in my head an idea for an ultimate Trek story, but that's a miniseries, not a movie, so it is not this.

As for this movie specifically, what would I do differently? Let's take any of the major ideas and rework them:

Our heroes all find their way to the positions we know them in.

If this is what you want your movie to be about, that's fine, though I still don't think it's strictly necessary. You could start the movie with Captain Kirk stepping onto the bridge for the first time and everyone in the audience, fan or not, would be on board (pardon the pun). But to make it work, let more time pass. It's an extraordinary coincidence by itself that all of these specific people end up on the ship at this exact moment in time, which is a different moment in time under entirely different circumstances than in the original continuity. So you have to justify how this exact arrangement of people ended up happening twice under completely different circumstances.

Instead, let the story unfold over a greater time period and you can bring them on bit by bit, lessening that implausibility. The heart of the movie and the relationships is the Kirk-Spock-(McCoy) dynamic. You can still follow that by contriving the two or three of them together early on and letting everyone else come in as time goes on. Does Chekhov really need to be there at the beginning? He's a punchline, really, nothing more. And the others, in terms of serving the plot, aren't much more.

Also, spreading the story out over a greater time period automatically raises the stakes. Say you have Nero and the Narada (or something like them) floating around the edges of explored space for years. But nobody's ever been able to engage or even directly encounter the thing and live to tell the tale. As far as the Federation knows, there's just a big hunk of flying death out there that could strike anywhere at anytime. And they don't know anything about it and they haven't been able to push the frontier out because of it. But now they've got these new state of the art cruiser-explorer ships meant specifically to explore the unknown and able to handle itself no matter what's out there. And who gets the assignment that will end up bringing them face to face with that mysterious floating death? Why, the brash young officer who's been climbing his way through the ranks the past few years (a setup less ludicrous than going from stowaway to captain in six hours), of course. Now you've got this cast of characters we already love facing down something that's been a menace for years or even decades. And, obviously, in the third act, they encounter the floating death just as it's almost ready to launch it's final assault on Earth/Vulcan/the Federation/everybody and have to stop it before it's Too Late.

Original continuity character is stranded in the past.

If this character is coming from an established continuity, then follow the rules of that continuity. Which means that if they know about how time travel works (and, I don't know, HAVE TIME TRAVELED TO FIX THE TIMELINE BEFORE, MULTIPLE TIMES), their actions must be consistent with their actions before. Which means Spock (Old Spock) should in that movie, be endeavoring to fix the damage Nero has done. He also has access to means to both travel further backwards in time and forward again. In this scenario, Old Spock would take any number of actions that follow this general pattern:

(1) Spock finds help.
(2) Spock convinces help that he's from the future and needs to repair damage to the timeline.
(3) Spock, with help, travels to the original point of divergence in the timeline to prevent the damage.
(4) Original timeline is restored, everyone drinks cocoa.

So maybe something like this:

Spock is stranded in the past. He works his way back towards civilization. Presumably if this is a smarter movie, the villain is smart enough to strand Spock somewhere a little more remote than the Federation equivalent of a Chicago suburb. But, he's stranded and he works his way back towards space civilization. He recruits somebody who is willing to believe him, whether it's Kirk, his young self, his father, whoever. He takes a ship and slingshots it around the sun to time travel again, like he's done multiple times before (including once with a death-hangover). Time travel damage repaired, go home, cocoa.

Obviously, this story is not about our young and pretty heroes, so as a movie, it's obviously a no go. But that's fine, since time travel stories are inherently nonsensical anyway and the more time we spend on them, the less they make sense. A bigger problem is that it wrecks the setup of having this new timeline to play in for future movies.

So let's make it interesting. Have Spock legitimately fail and die in any one of these steps. In the original continuity, it's a joke how improbably lucky Kirk and crew get in their travails. At least there it eventually gets lamp shaded - Kirk and crew are legends precisely because their crazy risky schemes always happened to pay off. That's not great story telling, but we can make this story STRONGER precisely by capitalizing on Star Trek's previous story weaknesses. Let Spock try a crazy risky scheme that has a 1 in 100 chance of working. And let the dice roll come up as snake eyes this time, killing him in the process. Then your original continuity character has tried to repair the damage and failed (making his character consistent), which then justifies why this new timeline is different and is going to stay different. You're basically spearing Wash through the chest by doing this, only times a thousand. If you did this, as somebody who has idolized Spock most of his life, I would hate you. But as a storyteller? I couldn't help but be damned impressed.

Future villain comes from the past to wreck things.

Ugh. Fine. But same point with following the rules of the original continuity. If the starting point is the original continuity - then follow those rules. If not, fine, do whatever you want. That's a straight reboot - a straight reimagining and you get free reign to do whatever you want. But original continuity = original continuity rules.

Anyway, you fix this by fixing Nero's motivation. It's weak to the point of being nonsensical. He blames Spock for trying very hard to prevent Romulus from blowing up and failing. How about, instead, now that he's in the past (by purpose or accident), he realizes his home still exists and he has an Awesome Future Ship that can conquer the galaxy. He also probably has the equivalent of Romulus' Grey's Sports Almanac that he can use to become Romulan-Biff. Go home and be Romulan-Biff! Conquer Romulus, become a crazy Emperor and use your awesome flagship to run rampage over the primitive Klingons and Federation! Even if you want to keep the stupid "I must exact revenge on my nemesis by making him watch me blow up his home," do it with the rest of the Romulan Empire at your back!

This idea could stand on its own or just as easily be folded into the first section of this post. The time that has had to pass for our crew to come together was also the time Nero needed to do all the political things he needed to do to become the unquestioned ruler of Romulus. And now, at the start of our story (or the third act, depending on how you're structuring it), he's finally established a solid reign of terror and is ready to steamroll over the rest of the galaxy, starting with Earth and Vulcan. And our hero's have to stop him. Somehow.

The advantage to folding this into the first section is it allows you to have parallel action over years worth of events. Kirk graduates the academy, cut to Nero first arriving in the past and blowing stuff up, cut to Kirk as a junior officer doing something crazy and getting noticed for it, cut to Nero returning home for the first time, cut to Kirk as a first officer clashing with his captain, cut to Nero finally defeating some political rival, and so forth. Whatever the specific events are, the parallel action allows you enormous freedom to cover vast amounts of time while still moving the story at solid clip.

Now, if you gave me a totally clean slate, I'm honestly not sure what I would do (unless you were giving me that miniseries I mentioned), but even starting with the broad strokes of what exists on screen, there are infinite ways to make a story that is both stronger on its own merit and more connected to the source material. Again, I give the filmmakers a lot of leeway because they the writer's strike interfered with their process and they were simply forced to start shooting. In a perfect world, movies wouldn't ever start shooting until the script was ready to go, but by the time that happens, we will have no need for Star Trek because utopia will no longer be science fiction.

Just don't pretend that the story is anything but poor after the fact.

Strong stories arise out of strong situations. 2009 Trek is three half ideas that don't add up to a coherent situation.