...well I guess that's another item to be added to the "women must be broken to be strong" and "rape to move male characters forward" lists.

On the nudity thing: am I imagining it, or has Game of Thrones received some backlash for not including a balanced amount of nudity? I think they've only had full-frontal from the guys two of three times, as opposed to the constant female nudity. Nothing wrong with the latter of course (they've toned it down from the books), but still.

I am so happy this thread is getting replies.

Zarban's link is a good start to my problems with Joss, but this quote also sums them up nicely.
Girls and women can be strong without being broken first, but Joss rarely writes them this way. Joss has a very specific brand of feminism that consists of thin little girls being broken down and then becoming badasses.  Usually the breaking of his women involves rape or something akin to it. The easiest examples of this are River's "training" by the Alliance and the first Slayer having powers put into her against her will by men.  Let's ignore the romanticized rape-fest that is Dollhouse for now.

I hate to make generalizations, but I think this trend is echoed in a lot of geek culture.  Female characters are thin and broken and falling apart before they start kicking ass.  You guys mention Jim Cameron for strong females*, and he does an alright job on this front. Sarah Connor can't make a bomb without learning how to first, but we see that she's still a pretty capable human before the T-800 comes to town.  Aliens also has some good ladies that didn't go through a trauma in order to be interesting.  But, oh man, do I love that line about writing strong women who need a stronger man.

I would say George RR Martin, who is by no means perfect, is much further along in his portrayal of women. I hate having a male example, but he's the commercial one I can always go to.  In ASOIAF, the women are strong in a lot of different ways. You have Cersei using her sexuality to move up, Sansa using her courtesy as a political tool, Arya the warrior, Catelyn the protective mother, Brienne the soldier, Ygritte the liberated fighter, Daenerys the caretaker and leader, all of the Mormont women, and Ellaria Sand and all of the Sand Snakes. Those are just the big names at the top of a long list.  GRRM presents his female characters as strong in many different ways, and while some of them have gone through a lot to make them strong (Dany, Arya, and Cersei) some of them are using the strength they already had to respond to changing situations (Sansa, Cat, Ygritte, Ellaria).  And none of them are presented as better than the other within the text, despite their differences.

I guess this adds on to what Teague asked. People cite Joss as a great creator of "strong women"* and don't talk about what should come next. Joss wrote it, it's great, and that's the end of the discussion.  Where are my female creators? Why is Gail Simone our only big example in the comic book world?

Outside of the geekworld, Robert and Michelle King are doing great work on The Good Wife.  I actually wrote my Common App essay on the show. I write a lot of essays.

*I second the "ugh", Teague. There is a great article that I cannot currently find that talks about why we should discuss "strong characters, female" not "STRONG FEMALE CHARACTERS".  I'll try and dig it up.

Can we stop acting like Joss Whedon gets a free pass because he calls himself a feminist? The guy has some issues with women and a lot of his work is problematic and damaging.

And now I would really like to move on to the discussion of the Hulk's pants because it bothered me too. But is he really that hairy? I haven't really noticed it in any of my viewings.

This makes me think that you have not read a lot of romance novels.  Their depiction of men is hardly uniform, at least in the way you're describing.  If you don't want to dive into that section of the library, I would recommend you check out Janice Radway's Reading the Romance, or perhaps Tania Modeleski's Loving With a Vengeance.

Also, what are you trying to prove with those magazine shots you're posting? Because all I'm seeing is that even women who run magazines have internalized the idea that everyone wants women filtered through the male gaze.  Even Anna Wintour can be wrong.

Yeah, they can be. Are they? Or are Ellen Ripley and Sarah Connor the minority?  One, two, or ten examples doesn't mean sexism is over anymore than Uncle Tom's Cabin being popular meant racism was over. Women have a long way to go, especially in the media.

Y'all should check out the brilliant Ariel Levy and her book "Female Chauvinist Pigs" or this link that I posted earlier: http://www.comicsalliance.com/2011/09/2 … rheroine/.

It is the way in which these things are utilized that makes them empowering, not their presence.  There is nothing inherently sexist or empowering about a bikini or a hijab. It is the way our culture views them and forces them onto us that makes them good or bad. Or forces them onto me, that is, speaking as the (only?) lady in this discussion.

On that note, I will probably bow out of this discussion soon.  Being someone who has to deal with sexism and misogyny in this fandom, reading some of this is frustrating.

ETA:

Unless this movie was made in some vacuum where it was not influenced by Western culture or gender politics, this is wrong.  If it was made in that way, please point me to that vacuum because I would love to live there, especially with Joss Whedon.

You didn't mention the comics (I'm guess you're not defending them?) but I will take every opportunity to share this photo:

I have also blocked most of the film from my memory, but here's what I think: it took what could have been a really empowering story (fighting back against a patriarchal beauty standard, ladies with grey morals, etc.) and turned it into a party about Halle Berry's thighs in ripped leather.  It wasn't so much the text of the film that I object to (on a feminist level) but the fact that it is all shot with the male gaze in mind.   

Here's a good write up of sexualization in DC right now, regarding Catwoman and Starfire specifically.  http://www.comicsalliance.com/2011/09/2 … erheroine/

There's more to read about this if you want to dig around the interwebs for it, but here's your summary:

Dan Didio refuses to allow any of the DC writers to use Steph Brown or Cass Cain. But Cass and Steph aren’t just not allowed to be Batgirl, they’re not allowed to exist at all.  He said it's because Babs is "more iconic" than the other two but a) Babs was added only after he ordered the removal of Steph and b) that's still no excuse to remove Steph from her well-received position as Spoiler AND not let her be a Robin anymore.

Also, by having Babs be Bat Girl again, DC managed to erase years of amazing character development and everything she had as Oracle in favor of giving Babs her youth and legs back.

I think Judd Winick is demonstrative of the problem as a whole. This guy, who is paid to make Catwoman an interesting and well rounded character, said that she "comes down to about three things: she's beautiful, she wears a very tight costume, and she steals".  That's not how you pass the Plinkett test, Judd.

Okay, let's say that men are sexualized in this industry too (they're not, but let's do with it). If we're talking about sexism you have to look at it within a larger context. Are male characters going to have their agency taken away from them time and time again? No. Are male readers lacking for representation in an industry that has been repeatedly hostile to them? No.
I'm fine with some female characters being sexy. I'm not okay with every female character being set dressing.

Also everything Dorkman has said.  Way to be on top of things, bro.

Just saw Attack the Block with my hallmates.   Currently too impressed to form sentences.

Seriously, guys: Joss is a BIT busy at the moment. I think we can rule his involvement out.

Those episodes did it well though. I didn't like the format of Love and Monsters, it felt...I don't know, wrong. There was no one I was really interested in seeing more of.

Oh, Trey, you're so out of touch! On Tumblr, you tag your posts (like a hash tag on Twitter). People track tags for things they're interested in, like shows or characters or people.

I only have a few hundred followers, but I'd be happy to start promoting the project there. Anyone else have a blog and interest in helping?