redxavier wrote:Allison wrote:But it's silly to say that skin color isn't an important aspect of his character. Look at the way people talk about Elia. Look at the way Dornish folk are viewed by the rest of Westeros. Skin color is an important dynamic to discuss when talking about Martells, in the same way gender is an important dynamic to discuss when talking about Catelyn.
I think you're reading between the lines a fair amount here. We have access to the thoughts of a perceptive and observant individual who at no point refers to skin colour when thinking about them. I don't recall Tyrion assessing Oberyn's skin colour as a factor in his ability as a champion for instance. Do you have any examples of Westerosi attitudes towards the Martells/Dornish along the lines of their skin colour? If you could find some, I'd be able to see where this is coming from.
But in their absence, it's like saying that the Tully's hair colour plays a part in their identity. Does it? Well, there's no evidence for it. Which makes for a shaky foundation to be all 'he aint brown enough' on the same level of importance as being fat is for Sam.
I mean, I'd say the whole point of talking about reading between the lines. But I'm happy to elaborate:
Let's talk about WOC. Women of color are often compared to white women. They are told they're pretty "for an (insert ethnicity here) girl". If they're smart, it's considered exceptional since "most WOC aren't". If they are not desexualized, they are exoticized as something "new" and "different". Think of the tropes of "primal" black sexuality and docile Asian women.
You can see that Elia, as a WOC, is viewed exactly this way by the Westerosi. Elia is described as pretty by certain characters (Howland Reed, other Martells, etc.) who have no particular social biases against the Dornish. Barristan, on the other hand, compares her to Ashara Dayne and thinks her nothing special. Barristan specifically points out Ashara’s pale skin in contrast. Remember, pale skin is valued in most cultures both as a side effect of colonialism and because it denotes a higher class (never having to work outside). She’s also desexualised repeatedly, often while people lift Lyanna (another pale Westerosi woman) up as the pinnacle of beauty and grace.
The comments we hear from other characters are almost always comments about her looks, even though once we were told that she impressed Rhaegar with her wit. No one (sans other Martells) talk about her intelligence; instead they treat Elia like someone to be pitied, since she could never measure up to someone like Lyanna. Her intelligence, good looks, and overall worth is downplayed because of who she is, where she was from, and because she was "sickly"*. Despite being the first born daughter in a respected and wealthy house, Tywin refused a marriage to Jaime, instead offering Tyrion as a match. Offering the son you view as "monstrous" isn't really a fair deal, unless you think the woman is worthless.
As far as POC being generally looked down on by Westerosi, Lazy Leo in the prologue of AFFC says thus to a mixed child of a Summer Islander and a Dornishman:
"Your mother was a monkey from the Summer Isles. The Dornish will fuck anything with a hole between its legs. Meaning no offense. You may be brown as a nut, but at least you bathe."
Throughout that prologue, much and more is made of Alleras looking different from everyone else. He's called "the Sphinx" and his dark skin and black eyes are mentioned in every paragraph. Clearly, race matters to those in Oldtown.
*She probably was sickly, due to her premature birth, but I don't think it was as serious as people think it is. She managed to travel, appear at large social events like tourneys, and bear three children. I think people viewing her as weak and delicate could also be racially motivated.
redxavier wrote:Allison wrote:Eye color and hair color are not really the same as race. I have yet to see people being systematically disenfranchised and devalued because they are brunette instead of ginger, in the real world or Westeros/Essos.
So you see nothing wrong with the fact that prominent red-haired characters are being played by non-redheads, except for the evil Melisandre and the wildling Ygritte?
Hair color is not synonymous with race. Also, separate debate: Is Melisandre really evil? I would say she's got a pretty strong moral compass and solid motivations for her actions. She's just trying to save the world, and everyone is obsessed with some blacksmith with a bad mustache.
redxavier wrote:As a redhead, it disappoints me that you don't think there's any problem with the way that we're treated. The feelings that lie at the heart of racism, and the victimisation that results, apply for any point of difference, whether it be sexual, racial, cultural or visual. Some differences are more greatly accentuated among certain groups, but that's not to say that no problems exist.
As someone whose family has continually suffered slavery, genocide, systematic rape and sterilization, being chased out of our homeland only to face more institutionalized discrimination, I've gotta say that it disappoints me you think those are analogous with whatever problems (?) face the ginger community.
redxavier wrote:Besides, it's not like GOT has a racial diversity quota to fill.
Yeah, but y'all keep talking about how diverse it is. If you can't name a few POC who aren't anonymous or dead, it's really not. That's my big point.