White and Latin aren't mutually exclusive. I mean, Alexis Bledel is also Latin@ but I wouldn't cast her as Arianne, you know?

Last edited by Allison (2013-06-30 02:07:31)

Who is that for Arianne? She looks perfect!

Yeah, the point of Dorne is that there is also a wide spectrum of skin tones (salty, sandy, stony) but Oberyn is pretty explicitly a dark haired, olive skinned Salty Dornishman. Tyene, one of the Sand Snakes, is a mix of stony and salty so she has dark skin and light hair/eyes.

I don't trust the show runners, since casting agencies have a habit of not casting people of color and, when they do, they cast very light skinned ones for POC roles. I'd like to see the casting call for Oberyn, personally.

It's Freida Pinto (Slumdog Millionaire).

When have the show runners messed up casting the show?

It seems to me the Internet wants Dorne to be played by Indians which was not the feeling I got from reading the book. I would have no problem with Oberyn played by an Indian actor but a tanned Pedro Pascal would not offend me.

But then again, it does not offend me when Hollywood does my people (the vikings) and gets everything wrong.

Last edited by AshDigital (2013-06-30 19:46:58)

Protip for my fellow white people: in discussions about representations of race in culture, saying "I don't see the problem" is not only not a good argument, it is a statement of the problem.

That is a great point.

I really don't have much more to add.

I'm confused by your differentiation between those types (there are dark Greeks and light Indians?) but either way: Pedro Pascal does not have olive skin. He is of a similar skin tone to all the Western and Northern Westerosi we see.

No, I'm concerned that the character is written as a person of color with a naturally dark complexion, which is rarely seen on TV, and they've cast him as a light skinned guy from Orange County. Representation is important, and I'm tired of Hollywood whitewashing roles where race is a central aspect of the character.

And, really? If we see a brown person the audience will assume that they're Dothraki? Even if they have different accents, speak the common tongue, dress differently, and act differently? I know Game of Thrones can be tough for people but it's not like people mix up Sansa and Margaery just because they're both pale.

tl;dr: It is not that hard to cast brown people in major roles, but for some reason no one does it.

Are you really saying you think it's entirely likely there were NO capable actors who matched the character's described appearance more closely?

His ability as an actor is not the issue under discussion.

Almost. I am suggesting that out of everyone who auditioned for the role, he was the best fit for it, for any number of reasons, of which skin tone is only one. And that the showrunners, having to make many tradeoffs per day to make the best product possible, ultimately decided that he possessed some quality or essence of the character that was more important than his skin tone being slightly off. At the end of the day, producers and casting directors are constrained by the set of actors that walk through their door.

And this is accepting the premise that his skin tone is in fact too light, which I don't. The Dornish are proxies for Spanish and Mediterranean ethnicities and I think Chilean is related closely enough that it's not the best time to call in the Outrage Squad. And maybe not judging his skin tone from a photo where he's standing six inches from the flash might also be in order, hence the waiting to see him in costume and on set.

I'm not saying this isn't a problem, I'm just saying that this maybe isn't the hill to die on.

And also, not to get too sharp, but this is an accusation for which you have no evidence other than a statistic, which is weak evidence for any individual situation, especially for a show already as multiethnic as Game of Thrones.

My point was that there's uncertainty about whether Oberyn is indeed the POC you claim he is. You appear to be stating rather definitively that he is, and I'd dispute that, given that he's explicitly not 'burnt brown' like a sandy Dornishman. I think we can agree olive-skinned is a broad enough description that applies to a wide real-world area. So the outrage that he's not 'brown enough' seems misguided.

Having looked at some pictures of the man via google, he does look lighter in a lot of flash photography. However, as fireproof notes, he can and does appear to be look more Mediterranean in others such as this picture.

I appreciate how you might have a dog in this race, but I think that greatly diminishes the character of Oberyn when you say that, as if there's nothing more to him than his skin colour. Oberyn is a fantastic character because he's Dornish, and GRRM has built up a fascinating and exciting culture and a concept of what that means in terms of behaviour (passionate, fiery, and uninhibited), not because he's coloured. Tyrion's thoughts aren't constantly about his skin colour, so I can't really see how you'd reach that conclusion.

This isn't Hollywood though. It's the UK, where colour-blind casting has been in practice for the last decade or so (see Robin Hood and Merlin for prime examples). I can see how you might be frustrated with the lack of racial diversity in American TV, but that's not the case over here and GOT is no exception.

Out of interest, were you complaining about Xaro's casting? What about Daenerys' eye colour? The Stark kids' hair colour? Because it seems a double standard to be a book purist for some characters and not for others.

I'm not saying there's not more to him than skin color. But it's silly to say that skin color isn't an important aspect of his character. Look at the way people talk about Elia. Look at the way Dornish folk are viewed by the rest of Westeros. Skin color is an important dynamic to discuss when talking about Martells, in the same way gender is an important dynamic to discuss when talking about Catelyn. I'm not "reducing" Catelyn to a woman when I talk about how her gender is important when you look at how men perceive her political advice. Talking about how other's perceive her without talking about gender would be useless.

Eye color and hair color are not really the same as race. I have yet to see people being systematically disenfranchised and devalued because they are brunette instead of ginger, in the real world or Westeros/Essos.

I will shut up if you can come up with a list of, hm, 10-15 POC on Game of Thrones that a) have names and/or lines and b) have not been killed off unnecessarily, like Dany's handmaids. Currently, it's only think Missandei and Grey Worm. If you count people who died, you've got Drogo and Dany's khas. It's hardly a rainbow coalition.

I mean, I'd say the whole point of talking about reading between the lines. But I'm happy to elaborate:

Let's talk about WOC. Women of color are often compared to white women. They are told they're pretty "for an (insert ethnicity here) girl". If they're smart, it's considered exceptional since "most WOC aren't". If they are not desexualized, they are exoticized as something "new" and "different". Think of the tropes of "primal" black sexuality and docile Asian women.

You can see that Elia, as a WOC, is viewed exactly this way by the Westerosi. Elia is described as pretty by certain characters (Howland Reed, other Martells, etc.) who have no particular social biases against the Dornish. Barristan, on the other hand, compares her to Ashara Dayne and thinks her nothing special. Barristan specifically points out Ashara’s pale skin in contrast.  Remember, pale skin is valued in most cultures both as a side effect of colonialism and because it denotes a higher class (never having to work outside). She’s also desexualised repeatedly, often while people lift Lyanna (another pale Westerosi woman) up as the pinnacle of beauty and grace.

The comments we hear from other characters are almost always comments about her looks, even though once we were told that she impressed Rhaegar with her wit. No one (sans other Martells) talk about her intelligence; instead they treat Elia like someone to be pitied, since she could never measure up to someone like Lyanna. Her intelligence, good looks, and overall worth is downplayed because of who she is, where she was from, and because she was "sickly"*. Despite being the first born daughter in a respected and wealthy house, Tywin refused a marriage to Jaime, instead offering Tyrion as a match. Offering the son you view as "monstrous" isn't really a fair deal, unless you think the woman is worthless.

As far as POC being generally looked down on by Westerosi, Lazy Leo in the prologue of AFFC says thus to a mixed child of a Summer Islander and a Dornishman:
"Your mother was a monkey from the Summer Isles. The Dornish will fuck anything with a hole between its legs. Meaning no offense. You may be brown as a nut, but at least you bathe."
Throughout that prologue, much and more is made of Alleras looking different from everyone else. He's called "the Sphinx" and his dark skin and black eyes are mentioned in every paragraph. Clearly, race matters to those in Oldtown.

*She probably was sickly, due to her premature birth, but I don't think it was as serious as people think it is. She managed to travel, appear at large social events like tourneys, and bear three children. I think people viewing her as weak and delicate could also be racially motivated.

Hair color is not synonymous with race. Also, separate debate: Is Melisandre really evil? I would say she's got a pretty strong moral compass and solid motivations for her actions. She's just trying to save the world, and everyone is obsessed with some blacksmith with a bad mustache.

As someone whose family has continually suffered slavery, genocide, systematic rape and sterilization, being chased out of our homeland only to face more institutionalized discrimination, I've gotta say that it disappoints me you think those are analogous with whatever problems (?) face the ginger community.

Yeah, but y'all keep talking about how diverse it is. If you can't name a few POC who aren't anonymous or dead, it's really not. That's my big point.

Last edited by Allison (2013-07-02 03:26:15)