Re: The Avengers

I can think of two examples in The Avengers that give you what you're asking for, in terms of showing an "unenlightened" male underestimating Black Widow because she's female, thus showing that even though she has the respect and equality of her teammates, life is not carefree for her and she still struggles as a woman in a male-dominated world.... That was such a run-on sentence, I think my actual feet are hurting.

1. Black Widow's very first scene. She's being interrogated by a group of Russian criminals, all men. They're extremely cocky and don't view her as much of a threat. To them, she's just some chick in a dress and heels, so subconsciously they give out information they shouldn't (now that I think about it, this is similar to the beginning of Serenity, with The Operative condemning and ultimately killing Dr. Mathias for doing the same thing with River Tam).

2. The reprise of that idea later, this time involving Black Widow and Loki. Her gender is the very thing that Loki takes note of and tries to use against her, because he has a very sexist idea of what a woman is and what she's capable of. In fact, he blatantly tells her she's only a woman and that's the biggest insult he can throw at her. He calls her a "mewling quim".

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Those are my favorite scenes in the film! They really demonstrate the Black Widow signature of adopting the noir archetype of an emotional and easily manipulated woman and using it to her advantage. Whedon isn't perfect and he shouldn't get a pass on sexism just because he's Joss, but he crafted those scenes VERY well.

I think those scenes can also challenge the idea of Tasha being an honorary male. Only a woman, underestimated by everyone, could pull off what she does. But HM is still a good way to look at women in films.

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God loves you!

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Meh. I can't say the posters bother me, not because there's nothing wrong with them - there is. It's just not any worse than the stuff I see everywhere everyday. I would like for the way that women are posed on posters to change, but I care more about the way female characters are portrayed in movies. You fix that and I suspect the posters will naturally get fixed along the way. I don't stare at movie posters all day, but I do stare at movies.

I've been thinking about "strong characters, female" as Allison puts it and there really aren't any good action movies from this century told from the point of view of a woman. Are there? I guess there's a couple bad ones, like Catwoman, but I can't think of any good ones and I definitely don't own any.

Since Hollywood is so dedicated to perfecting this whole superhero-story-movie-thing I'd really like just ONE really good one starring a woman before this trend is over.

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Does "Dredd" count? I mean, I know on the surface Dredd is the main character and the guy we're following, but as discussed in the DiF commentary and in the thread for that episode, Anderson is the more human character, the one we can empathize and sympathize with and the one whose head we get into more, sometimes quite literally. There's also the dark side of that with Ma-Ma, another Woman of authority who is not to be underestimated and wields some kind of power.

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That would certainly be an awesome movie to both make and view.  With that said, I am very much of the opinion that filmmaker has a responsibility to construct the world from their viewpoint, first and foremost.  As we all know, in Joss Whedon's worldview, it's simply a given that men and women start on level playing fields.  In Ayn Rand's, it's very different, as illustrated by the dominant Alpha Male characters, and near rape fantasies by the women in  The Fountainhead and Atlas Shrugged.

So overall, I agree with Bathilda that it would be nice to take one of these super hero movies and start with gender relations as they are in our world, and move on from there.  It would be refreshing.  I just don't think that the fact that the Avengers DOESN'T do that makes it a bad choice.

Eddie Doty

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YES. What Teague said. I feel a little sheepish that you were able to sum up what I was feeling that succinctly when I so could not. Good job.

And fair enough, Eddie. I can live with that.

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No, no. I was specifically answering Bathilda's request for a "good action movie from this century told from the point of view of a woman". That's all.

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186 (edited by Bathilda 2013-02-06 11:26:52)

Re: The Avengers

Well, I design ladies underwear, so ... yeah. I AM in favor of boobs. It would be economically advantageous to me. Also, a realistic and healthy portrayal of a lady's chest would be a nice thing to have in this hypothetical movie. ... This is getting weird.

Edit to say: I haven't seen Dredd, but it sounds good.

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Thanks to Bathilda for your point of view.
I think Avengers handles it well enough but that being able to comment on gender issues in movies, especially, as Trey points out, that there is much worse female portrayals in films but I agree with Bathilda that being able to use a super heroine style film to explore gender issues would be an interesting piece.

Showing a world that is struggling with the issues of gender inequality through the view of a super heroine would be a good place to start. Maybe a heroine apprentice rising among the world of male heroes (similar to the Incredibles with Elastigirl in the early part of the film). She encounters the similar glass ceilings and must grow past them.

Just pure speculation right now.

God loves you!

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189 (edited by Bathilda 2013-02-06 12:49:14)

Re: The Avengers

Yeah, I probably should have clarified, my outrage at the film stems more from my two guy friends insisting that I feel empowered by Black Widow and me being unable to immediately explain why that felt so wrong.

I don't begrudge anyone else liking Avengers, and the movie isn't horrific. It's like Looper; it hurts more because it got so very close to being the thing I want, not because it missed by a mile.

Also: thanks for the warm welcome and for taking my complaints seriously. That's very kind.  smile

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Hmmm, the forums have immediately accepted you as a valued member with respect and equal treatment, regardless of your gender. Does that make Down In Front an unrealistic, unrelatable fantasy land? smile

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It's a wonderland, in which the forum is a magic bean.  smile

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Do I smell a new slogan?

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193

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This is an interesting example of culture clash, really. A big budget US movie where a female character DOES have her gender become an issue would probably be laughed at, or at least be considered old fashioned. Similarly, a movie about women in the US military might be laughed at in nations like Israel, where women have served in combat for years.

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Good point, Invid. That and Dorkman's letter to the director of Star Wars got me thinking. I doubt I'd be complaining about any of this if I actually liked the character of Black Widow. After the movie was over I didn't feel like I was friends with her. There are a lot of main characters in that movie and I had already had 2+ hours to get to know most of the other ones individually so that may have emphasized how distant she felt.

Maybe the problem for me being able to enjoy her/this movie is less about gender politics and more about basic ol' storycrafting.

I keep thinking that Padme shouldn't really work for me in Attack of the Clones. As a character she does a lot of what I've been complaining about, but in her case it doesn't really bother me. It's fun to watch her fall in love with that idiot even though we know (and maybe even she knows) it won't end well. Hmm.

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God loves you!

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197 (edited by Allison 2013-02-26 17:12:16)

Re: The Avengers

That's a great post, and provides a good explanation for why friends and I hung out in comic book stores convincing people to order the new Carol Danvers/Captain Marvel books.  It felt like we had to put in effort to make sure it got a chance. On that note: please go check out Captain Marvel. She's great. New issue out on March 20!

Also, the post brings up a good point about women feeling uncomfortable in comic book shops. I've been going to the same comic book store since I was 11, but I still get guys trying to explain to me how things work or asking if I just want to know where to find the movie-tie-ins. Women can be and are into comic books. We just have to stop alienating them, both by marketing to them and making them feel welcome.

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I would never lie. I willfully participate in a campaign of misinformation.

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I would never lie. I willfully participate in a campaign of misinformation.