Re: The Avengers

I can think of two examples in The Avengers that give you what you're asking for, in terms of showing an "unenlightened" male underestimating Black Widow because she's female, thus showing that even though she has the respect and equality of her teammates, life is not carefree for her and she still struggles as a woman in a male-dominated world.... That was such a run-on sentence, I think my actual feet are hurting.

1. Black Widow's very first scene. She's being interrogated by a group of Russian criminals, all men. They're extremely cocky and don't view her as much of a threat. To them, she's just some chick in a dress and heels, so subconsciously they give out information they shouldn't (now that I think about it, this is similar to the beginning of Serenity, with The Operative condemning and ultimately killing Dr. Mathias for doing the same thing with River Tam).

2. The reprise of that idea later, this time involving Black Widow and Loki. Her gender is the very thing that Loki takes note of and tries to use against her, because he has a very sexist idea of what a woman is and what she's capable of. In fact, he blatantly tells her she's only a woman and that's the biggest insult he can throw at her. He calls her a "mewling quim".

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Re: The Avengers

Those are my favorite scenes in the film! They really demonstrate the Black Widow signature of adopting the noir archetype of an emotional and easily manipulated woman and using it to her advantage. Whedon isn't perfect and he shouldn't get a pass on sexism just because he's Joss, but he crafted those scenes VERY well.

I think those scenes can also challenge the idea of Tasha being an honorary male. Only a woman, underestimated by everyone, could pull off what she does. But HM is still a good way to look at women in films.

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Re: The Avengers

Trey wrote:

Hey Eddie - since it's topical (both here and in the real world) - what's your mother's take on the proposal to lift the ban on women in combat?

Thanks for asking, Trey. Once I saw that cover, I wanted to ask the same thing. It bothers me that the standards were set the same then lowered. That is crazy talk to me. The military is structured that you have to know that the person next to you can handle it.

Also, welcome to Bathhilda, and I love seeing this thread and topic of discussion come back to life. It is such an interesting topic that hits very hard on current cultural issues, and the issues are not always readily apparent to the idiot males (a group I proudly join along with Eddie). Having a female's perspective is a lot of fun.

I would be curious, Bathilda, if Black Widow is presented as an "honorary male" in the movie, what do you think of the movie posters and things like that? The movie poster below started this discussion as some claimed that the portrayal of Black Widow is sexist in the poster while others state that it is not. I would appreciate another female's perspective on this.

http://sojo.net/sites/default/files/16yGO.jpg

God loves you!

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Re: The Avengers

Meh. I can't say the posters bother me, not because there's nothing wrong with them - there is. It's just not any worse than the stuff I see everywhere everyday. I would like for the way that women are posed on posters to change, but I care more about the way female characters are portrayed in movies. You fix that and I suspect the posters will naturally get fixed along the way. I don't stare at movie posters all day, but I do stare at movies.

I've been thinking about "strong characters, female" as Allison puts it and there really aren't any good action movies from this century told from the point of view of a woman. Are there? I guess there's a couple bad ones, like Catwoman, but I can't think of any good ones and I definitely don't own any.

Since Hollywood is so dedicated to perfecting this whole superhero-story-movie-thing I'd really like just ONE really good one starring a woman before this trend is over.

Re: The Avengers

Does "Dredd" count? I mean, I know on the surface Dredd is the main character and the guy we're following, but as discussed in the DiF commentary and in the thread for that episode, Anderson is the more human character, the one we can empathize and sympathize with and the one whose head we get into more, sometimes quite literally. There's also the dark side of that with Ma-Ma, another Woman of authority who is not to be underestimated and wields some kind of power.

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Re: The Avengers

But as observed in that episode, the world around them doesn't actually seem to mind at all that they're women, and the point Bathilda made earlier was that a world where it's Suddenly Different for women isn't realistic either.

I think what she's proposing is a universe wherein a woman is dealing with modern layers of gender inequality as a starting point, and navigates that world believably to end up as an instructive hero case by the end.

And also shows her boobs. I think that was also her point.

Teague Chrystie

I have a tendency to fix your typos.

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Re: The Avengers

That would certainly be an awesome movie to both make and view.  With that said, I am very much of the opinion that filmmaker has a responsibility to construct the world from their viewpoint, first and foremost.  As we all know, in Joss Whedon's worldview, it's simply a given that men and women start on level playing fields.  In Ayn Rand's, it's very different, as illustrated by the dominant Alpha Male characters, and near rape fantasies by the women in  The Fountainhead and Atlas Shrugged.

So overall, I agree with Bathilda that it would be nice to take one of these super hero movies and start with gender relations as they are in our world, and move on from there.  It would be refreshing.  I just don't think that the fact that the Avengers DOESN'T do that makes it a bad choice.

Eddie Doty

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Re: The Avengers

YES. What Teague said. I feel a little sheepish that you were able to sum up what I was feeling that succinctly when I so could not. Good job.

And fair enough, Eddie. I can live with that.

Re: The Avengers

By confirming my post is accurate, you have officially indicated that you are in favor of boobs.

Ha ha! The fine print!

Teague Chrystie

I have a tendency to fix your typos.

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Re: The Avengers

No, no. I was specifically answering Bathilda's request for a "good action movie from this century told from the point of view of a woman". That's all.

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Re: The Avengers

Well, I design ladies underwear, so ... yeah. I AM in favor of boobs. It would be economically advantageous to me. Also, a realistic and healthy portrayal of a lady's chest would be a nice thing to have in this hypothetical movie. ... This is getting weird.

Edit to say: I haven't seen Dredd, but it sounds good.

Last edited by Bathilda (2013-02-06 19:26:52)

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Re: The Avengers

I don't think you can expect a particular movie to be all things to all people - for example, I like The Avengers and The Help, but neither would be very good if it tried to be like the other at the same time.   The Help is about real-world race and gender issues, while Avengers isn't about real-world anything

If we level the playing field and compare one escapist explody movie to another -  the positive/neutral depiction of Black Widow in Avengers is preferable to the purely exploitative existence of Megan Fox's character in Transformers, isn't it?     Neither movie was made to address gender issues, but of the two at least Avengers isn't promoting negative stereotypes.

Re: The Avengers

Thanks to Bathilda for your point of view.
I think Avengers handles it well enough but that being able to comment on gender issues in movies, especially, as Trey points out, that there is much worse female portrayals in films but I agree with Bathilda that being able to use a super heroine style film to explore gender issues would be an interesting piece.

Showing a world that is struggling with the issues of gender inequality through the view of a super heroine would be a good place to start. Maybe a heroine apprentice rising among the world of male heroes (similar to the Incredibles with Elastigirl in the early part of the film). She encounters the similar glass ceilings and must grow past them.

Just pure speculation right now.

God loves you!

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Re: The Avengers

Yeah, I probably should have clarified, my outrage at the film stems more from my two guy friends insisting that I feel empowered by Black Widow and me being unable to immediately explain why that felt so wrong.

I don't begrudge anyone else liking Avengers, and the movie isn't horrific. It's like Looper; it hurts more because it got so very close to being the thing I want, not because it missed by a mile.

Also: thanks for the warm welcome and for taking my complaints seriously. That's very kind.  smile

Last edited by Bathilda (2013-02-06 20:49:14)

Re: The Avengers

Hmmm, the forums have immediately accepted you as a valued member with respect and equal treatment, regardless of your gender. Does that make Down In Front an unrealistic, unrelatable fantasy land? smile

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Re: The Avengers

It's a wonderland, in which the forum is a magic bean.  smile

Re: The Avengers

Do I smell a new slogan?

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193

Re: The Avengers

This is an interesting example of culture clash, really. A big budget US movie where a female character DOES have her gender become an issue would probably be laughed at, or at least be considered old fashioned. Similarly, a movie about women in the US military might be laughed at in nations like Israel, where women have served in combat for years.

I write stories! With words!
http://www.asstr.org/~Invid_Fan/

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Re: The Avengers

Good point, Invid. That and Dorkman's letter to the director of Star Wars got me thinking. I doubt I'd be complaining about any of this if I actually liked the character of Black Widow. After the movie was over I didn't feel like I was friends with her. There are a lot of main characters in that movie and I had already had 2+ hours to get to know most of the other ones individually so that may have emphasized how distant she felt.

Maybe the problem for me being able to enjoy her/this movie is less about gender politics and more about basic ol' storycrafting.

I keep thinking that Padme shouldn't really work for me in Attack of the Clones. As a character she does a lot of what I've been complaining about, but in her case it doesn't really bother me. It's fun to watch her fall in love with that idiot even though we know (and maybe even she knows) it won't end well. Hmm.

Re: The Avengers

Invid wrote:

This is an interesting example of culture clash, really. A big budget US movie where a female character DOES have her gender become an issue would probably be laughed at, or at least be considered old fashioned. Similarly, a movie about women in the US military might be laughed at in nations like Israel, where women have served in combat for years.

I think it would do better than many realize. Old fashion has a way of staying in fashion even if people don't talk about it.

God loves you!

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Re: The Avengers

From Reddit:

kellysue wrote:

Okay, last one and I'm done:

Dville1 wrote:

Why do you think it's been so difficult for Marvel to establish a female hero who isn't 1.) based of a male counterpart, 2.) made to give gender balance to a team or 3.) made to be the love interest of a more popular male hero?

Marvel is a publicly-owned company. They exist to make money. Period. If there was an idea that extra dollar could be made with female-led comics, Marvel would have more lady-led books than Avengers titles--with multiple variant covers, no doubt.
Why are there so many Avengers titles? They sell. Reliably.
Right now, we're stuck in a cycle. The perception is that women do not buy comics in significant numbers and that men do not support lady-led books, unless those books are loosely-disguised T&A books.
Retailers are stretched very thin. Comics are not returnable so whatever they buy, they're stuck with.
Let's remember this, okay? It's important. The publisher's customer is not the reader. Follow? The publisher's customer is the retailer. Once the retailer orders the book, from the publisher's standpoint, THAT IS THE SALE.
Those sales figures you see on icv2 or whatever? Those do not indicate the number of readers who pick up a book, they indicate the number of copies ordered by stores.
We all together on this? Good. Okay.
So.
Ever wondered how a book could get cancelled before it ever hits the shelves? That's how. Once the orders from the retailers are in, those are the sales figures. Period. Doesn't matter what the internet thinks of the book(1), doesn't matter who reviews it favorably on IGN or CBR or whatever. It matters how many copies of the book the retailers order before the book even hits the shelf.
The retailers have limited budgets, limited shelf space, and hundreds of new comics that come out every week. With rare exception, comics lose their value quicker than used cars (quarter bins, anyone?) so retailers must order very, very carefully. Every month, they have to try to determine exactly how many copies of each title they can sell through. If they over-order on just 2 titles per week, think about how quickly those stack up (literally!).
What's the takeaway here? Change is hard. Retailers, understandably, cannot take risks. Perception becomes fact.
If our "base" won't reliably support female-led books (and that is a whole other conversation that I do not have time for) then we need new readers. Strictly from a sustainability standpoint, we need new readers--our readership is aging and dwindling and the goodwill we should be getting from the comic book commercials commonly called "tentpole movies" we are, in large part, squandering. As an industry we put up high thresholds against new readers--whether it's something as culturally repugnant as this whole "authentic fangirl" crap or just our mind-boggling practices of shelving by publisher and numbering books into the 600s.
Think about the manga boom for a minute. The American notion had always been that women would not buy comics in significant numbers. There was even a commonly bandied about notion that "women are not visual." Who bought manga in the US? Largely women and girls. At ten bucks a pop, no less. Women spent literally millions of dollars on what? On comics.
Now, some people will argue that that had as much to do with the diversity of genre in manga as anything else--and that is a fair point. But I would argue that there is nothing inherently masculine about the science fiction aesthetic, nothing inherently masculine about power fantasies or aspirations to heroism.
So what else was it about manga that got women to buy in in huge numbers?
Well, for one thing, they didn't have to venture into comic book stores to get it. No risks of unfriendly clerks or clientele, authenticity tests or the porn basement atmosphere that even if it's not the reality of most stores, is certainly the broad perception. They could buy manga at the mall. What's more, they didn't need a guide. All they had to do was find the manga section, flip the books over and read the description (just like they'd done with any book they'd ever bought in their lives) and then, once they found one that interested them, find the volume with the giant number 1 on it and head to the check out.
Contrast that with an American comic books store experience for a new reader. First challenge--find the store. Now say you just saw the Avengers movie and you think you might want to find something about Black Widow. Where do you even start? If you don't have a friendly clerk, you're going to get overwhelmed and leave. If there's no BLACK WIDOW #1 on the shelf, you literally do not know what to do. New comics readers have to have a guide.
Compared to getting into traditional American comics, it's easier for a new reader to learn to read backwards! Think about that.
Anyway. That's it. The summary is "change is hard." Our industry is built to sell Batman (literally--all of our sales figures are relative to the sales of Batman) to the same guys who have always bought Batman and change is hard.
So what can we do? As readers, the most powerful tool we have is the pre-order. PRE-ORDER, PRE-ORDER, PRE-ORDER. Why? Because when you pre-order with a store, that is a sale to the store. The store is not assuming any risk. Therefore they bump up their orders with the publisher, which is reflected in the title's sales, which then becomes a cue to the publisher... hm... maybe these books will sell? Let's make more!
With me? If there is a book outside the most mainstream of mainstream--especially books from smaller publishers, but also "midlist" books from DC and Marvel, if you want to encourage those choices, the thing you must do is pre-order.
Do I hate asking that? Why yes I do. I don't want to ask people to commit to paying $3-$4 for a book three months before they've even seen it. It's embarrassing. But it's literally the only way I can see to affect change.
All right. That's all I've got.

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Re: The Avengers

That's a great post, and provides a good explanation for why friends and I hung out in comic book stores convincing people to order the new Carol Danvers/Captain Marvel books.  It felt like we had to put in effort to make sure it got a chance. On that note: please go check out Captain Marvel. She's great. New issue out on March 20!

Also, the post brings up a good point about women feeling uncomfortable in comic book shops. I've been going to the same comic book store since I was 11, but I still get guys trying to explain to me how things work or asking if I just want to know where to find the movie-tie-ins. Women can be and are into comic books. We just have to stop alienating them, both by marketing to them and making them feel welcome.

Last edited by Allison (2013-02-27 01:12:16)

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Re: The Avengers

Allison wrote:

Also, the post brings up a good point about women feeling uncomfortable in comic book shops. I've been going to the same comic book store since I was 11, but I still get guys trying to explain to me how things work or asking if I just want to know where to find the movie-tie-ins. Women can be and are into comic books. We just have to stop alienating them, both by marketing to them and making them feel welcome.

Like this? smile

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I would never lie. I willfully participate in a campaign of misinformation.

Re: The Avengers

Allison wrote:

Also, the post brings up a good point about women feeling uncomfortable in comic book shops. I've been going to the same comic book store since I was 11, but I still get guys trying to explain to me how things work

For those not hip to the lingo, what Allison describes here is what feminists mean when they refer to "mansplaining."

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Re: The Avengers

https://fbcdn-sphotos-d-a.akamaihd.net/hphotos-ak-prn1/625509_10151565992919427_1802597631_n.jpg
Steve Carell, Jon Stewart and Stephen Colbert
How men would look if they had to pose in ads the way women are expected to.

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I would never lie. I willfully participate in a campaign of misinformation.