Well to be fair. If we are talking about Eddie Bravo here then the guy literally has made an art form of putting his foot in his mouth.... literally.

Hey, guys, I know what's worth getting hurt and upset about!  What a douchebag artist of no real value to humanity beyond entertaining SOME people SOME of the time thinks or says or does, ever!

I once wrote "Creepy Little Freak" on the forehead of a bald kid (clearly going through radiation therapy) who asked for my autograph, though, so I'm probably not qualified to speak on this subject.  I hope he wound up laughing as hard as I did.

I've learned that as a white straight male in America my opinions on just about anything are invalid, so I just sit these out.

I brought up George Lucas and the portrayal of Leia earlier... I think that she is one of the stronger female characters in Science Fiction/Fantasy movies to date.  I wonder how much we might have Marcia Lucas to thank for that portrayal.  Padme is just horribly written on so many levels, I recently re-watched the prequels and was stunned again by just how horribly her character is written.

More broadly, I think it will be interesting to see where this discussion goes in 20 years, much intolerance is taught/learned, as is stated in a great, often eliminated, song from South Pacific (I won't get into that discussion here).   I think we're already seeing a country which in general is becoming more tolerant, but in many ways and as Eddie pointed out these things start at home.  People who move into/out of their home areas eventually realize things which are offensive and possibly change, however a large portion of America will continue living in the same rural area their entire life so that is where the portrayals in media can make a significant difference. 

I think another important thing is for parents to help their kids learn that some people are going to look different than them.  I'm short (4'8"), I encourage parents to let their kids, who by the 4th grade are normally taller than I am, ask me questions rather than trying to hide the fact their kid is pointing and staring, let the kid ask the question, its part of the learning process.  We also have to accept that not everyone is going to understand, or share opinions for various reasons.  I've realized recently that I don't mind being called "little" anymore, that many people don't mean anything negative by it, and I think that's something which applies to things like being called "sweetie" or "darling" when living in the south... its just the learned behavior not a negative necessarily.

I've rambled enough here, but I think a large part of the discussion we're having here is part of the learning process, and I think its great we can have a discussion like this here.

As adults we realize its normal, but kids don't necessarily.  Adults as a rule are bigger than they are, in several cases I've had parents trying to control their squirming kid who's asking "why is she driving, why can't I drive", or "Why is she allowed to shop by herself?", and my favorite "why doesn't she have to hold her mom's hand?"

I think because its an extrapolation of dwarf, midget, troll, shrimp, etc. and was used as a pejorative like those.

A couple of other points that I wanted to make that have been circulating my mind for a while:
1. I realized that my hard core reaction to Avengers feminist marketing (the origin of the feminist/sexism discussion) was the fact that Black Widow was often showed in a sexualized manner, either prominently displaying butt or breasts while the men get action hero shots. Several members commented that how is Avengers (and by extension comics) any worse than other cultural displays of sexism? I realized that my frustration and concern was due to the fact of the target audience.
Avengers, and comics in general, specifically target a male audience, including young kids. So, while the sexism may no worse that what is shown in media in general, the audience targeted is younger and more impressionable, leaving sexist attitudes more dangerous to expose them too.

2. I was thinking about Verhoven's "Starship Troopers" and wanted to offer as a possible comparision the new mini series "Forward Unto Dawn" a prequel for Halo 4 but designed as more of a stand alone story too. The reason I draw upon it as a comparison work is because they are both science fiction military stories with female roles in it. Below is the link to the first episode (its 5 episodes long) and wonder how others regard its treatment of females in a military setting:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BfJVgXBfSH8

I think that the portrayal of Tasha in The Avengers is pretty good, seeing as she exploits people assuming she is weak and feminine and uses it to get information. I like the subversion. However, the same cannot be said of her guest spots in other people's comics (look at you, Daredevil writers).

Megan Fox is an excellent name to bring to the discussion. Thoughts, everyone?

I'm sincerely curious as to what the difference in between Channing Tatum and Megan Fox and Ryan Reynolds and ScarJo.

If the question at hand is "why are women more sexualized in movies than men," it's because men 18-35 both happen to be the biggest money demographic and also like sex with women more than any other demographic.  "It sells" is the answer to most questions.

If the question at hand is "why can't women be sexy AND interesting, whole characters," the answer is because people will pay to see the movie either way and one is way easier to write. 

If the statement is "this provides bad role models to young women," you're a dick, because you saw all this as a kid and still grew up to be a feminist, but you assume everyone else is way more gullible and will flock to the path of Paris Hilton and Bella Swan. 

If the statement is "this is why women make less in the workplace," you got me, I have no idea why that happens and will accept any explanation as feasible.

Channing and Ryan are none of these things.

That's pushing it a bit too far.

Last edited by Lamer (2012-12-06 19:36:06)

This is something that has always confused me about this argument (which I'm not entering btw, I'm just trying to figure something out). But what is the difference between every girl I know watching the trailer for Magic Mike and going "I would fuck the shit out of those guys." (Literal quote from one of my friends... and several more had variations on it), and a guy watching the trailer for Transformers or Avengers or whatever and thinking or saying the exact same thing about Megan Fox or ScarJo or whoever?

I've never understood why one is considered fine and socially acceptable but the other is consider vile putrid sexism.

(If this has been covered already, I apologize, I don't have time to read 6 pages of stuff right now)

Last edited by BigDamnArtist (2012-12-06 22:29:50)

It might be be rationalization, though I am trying to understand the metric you are using to measure this objectively.

I never claimed to be objective-I think, like others have posted, it is growing awareness of sexism that comes from education and personal growth.

But, I am striving for objectivity and will attempt to answer your statement as to why I think it is worse in the Avengers' marketing.

Warning: Rant ahead.

First of all, my point has been, and continues to be, comics are institutionalized sexism in their portrayal of females. There are some exceptions, but for the most part, especially the covers, they are designed to titillate the male audience in to buying them. If you would prefer more objective assessment, I have no doubt that I can find studies regarding comics and their portrayal of women.

The Avengers is not new in this however I think it has brought it more to the awareness of the public consciousness something that has been a part of Western, specifically American, society for many, many years. There are other examples, as many have pointed out, of women being portrayed as little more than sexualized set decorations.

This brings me to the difference between Megan Fox and the Black Widow. Please read this carefully because I feel like I am repeating myself with no one picking up this point. In Transformers, Megan Fox's character (its bad because I can't remember her name) is little more than eye candy for the male audience-I am not denying this. Its been brought up so so I will qualify it.

Megan Fox is not a "character" in the movie sense-she is a cardboard cut out with breasts and butt, a token girl for the male lead. That is all she is. The marketing of her was little more than the trailer shot of her flaunting her equipment. I think a fan edit of the movie could remove her or replace her with anyone else and there would not be a noticeable difference. As one reviewer I listened to commented on Transformers, the fact that she can "fix anything" (paraphrase) is little more than a statement about her character-we never actually see her fix cars or do anything that makes her sympathetic.

Of course, this is nothing new, but I call it out because it was a point made earlier. Yes, sexism exists, yes, it happens in other movies. Sorry if I am now calling it out in the Avengers.

In the Avengers, as commented on by the panel, Black Widow is a character. She has motivation, a past, emotions and concerns and also demonstrates an ability to hold her own against intimidating foes. She felt like a real person, someone we care about as an audience and can identify with to one degree or another. She is more than her looks-Black Widow demonstrates the ability to be on par with her male counterparts rather than a damsel in distress or token sexy girl in a group of men.

Why is it worse? To me, it is worse for two reasons. Please take the time to read them before dismissing me as overreacting to the Avengers and not other things.

1. As stated, Avengers takes time to create Black Widow as a person, a character with motivation and goals that are relevant to the story being told. She is presented as a person in the movie but not marketed as such. The movie poster that started this whole discussion is a great example, but is not the only example. Actions figures, posters, sculptures etc, present the male members of the team in action poses, while the Black Widow gets a passive stance, sometimes without a gun, barring cleavage and making sure her butt fills out the tight outfit. So, while presented as a full character in the movie, she is marketed as a token female, boobs, butt and boots.

2. Avengers is worse because of the target audience, just like I believe that comics are worse because of their target audience, of young males, 8-14. While there is obviously a larger market for them, comic book reading starts at a young age. So, while we here (at least the majority), are able to take objective view of material presented, a young audience does not. And this is not just my own take on things-psychologists for decades have proven that childhood attitudes are taught and ingrained from a young age. Behaviors presented to them are often acted out in their lives. Attitudes are learned and acted upon.

And like I said, it is not the movie-it is the marketing, its the toys that are being targeted towards a younger audience (Again, target audience not the adult collectors or fans out there). So, while there may not be any objective measure, I object to presenting Black Widow as a sex symbol to young kids, and my objection is also towards comics in general, which are also marketed towards a younger crowd.

Ok, rant over. My concern extends beyond the movie and towards the portrayal other marketing. Maybe it si because I have kids that I notice these things-I'm in the toy aisle a lot These are merely observations that extend to recognizing a larger problem within the culture at large.

By the way, my view is hardly extreme feminist. Here is a blog that is even more so-http://www.femmagazine.com/2012/08/08/i … ng-sexism/

Alright, let the dismantling begin

Last edited by fireproof78 (2012-12-07 20:11:45)

MAGIC MIKE is one movie.

TRANSFORMERS or AVENGERS or whatever are all other movies.

Also, it's worth noting the counterexamples of male objectification being brought to bear here -- MAGIC MIKE, TWILIGHT -- are all extremely recent examples with a very limited sample size, whereas the examples of women existing solely in the context of the men around them goes back pretty much the whole way. See: the Bechdel test.