Topic: Walter Murch puts the Kibosh on 3-D

I know the topic of 3-D has been addressed at length in these forums. But, I thought this link on Eberts' Blog really summarized all of the concerns I have with 3-D in general. Not only do I detest paying the extra $4 bones, but usually leave the theater feeling like my brain has taken a spin in the Microwave. This might be why:
http://blogs.suntimes.com/ebert/2011/01/post_4.html
Now read what Walter Murch says about 3D:

Hello Roger,

I read your review of "Green Hornet" and though I haven't seen the film, I agree with your comments about 3D.

The 3D image is dark, as you mentioned (about a camera stop darker) and small. Somehow the glasses "gather in" the image -- even on a huge Imax screen -- and make it seem half the scope of the same image when looked at without the glasses.

I edited one 3D film back in the 1980's -- "Captain Eo" -- and also noticed that horizontal movement will strobe much sooner in 3D than it does in 2D. This was true then, and it is still true now. It has something to do with the amount of brain power dedicated to studying the edges of things. The more conscious we are of edges, the earlier strobing kicks in.

The biggest problem with 3D, though, is the "convergence/focus" issue. A couple of the other issues -- darkness and "smallness" -- are at least theoretically solvable. But the deeper problem is that the audience must focus their eyes at the plane of the screen -- say it is 80 feet away. This is constant no matter what.

But their eyes must converge at perhaps 10 feet away, then 60 feet, then 120 feet, and so on, depending on what the illusion is. So 3D films require us to focus at one distance and converge at another. And 600 million years of evolution has never presented this problem before. All living things with eyes have always focussed and converged at the same point.

If we look at the salt shaker on the table, close to us, we focus at six feet and our eyeballs converge (tilt in) at six feet. Imagine the base of a triangle between your eyes and the apex of the triangle resting on the thing you are looking at. But then look out the window and you focus at sixty feet and converge also at sixty feet. That imaginary triangle has now "opened up" so that your lines of sight are almost -- almost -- parallel to each other.

We can do this. 3D films would not work if we couldn't. But it is like tapping your head and rubbing your stomach at the same time, difficult. So the "CPU" of our perceptual brain has to work extra hard, which is why after 20 minutes or so many people get headaches. They are doing something that 600 million years of evolution never prepared them for. This is a deep problem, which no amount of technical tweaking can fix. Nothing will fix it short of producing true "holographic" images.

Consequently, the editing of 3D films cannot be as rapid as for 2D films, because of this shifting of convergence: it takes a number of milliseconds for the brain/eye to "get" what the space of each shot is and adjust.

And lastly, the question of immersion. 3D films remind the audience that they are in a certain "perspective" relationship to the image. It is almost a Brechtian trick. Whereas if the film story has really gripped an audience they are "in" the picture in a kind of dreamlike "spaceless" space. So a good story will give you more dimensionality than you can ever cope with.

So: dark, small, stroby, headache inducing, alienating. And expensive. The question is: how long will it take people to realize and get fed up?

All best wishes,

Walter Murch

Murch also mentions 'Brechtian.' Whom I think Trey alluded to in the "Serenity" commentary.

Last edited by frankasu03 (2011-02-01 17:09:48)

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Re: Walter Murch puts the Kibosh on 3-D

And yet people like watching 3D movies. They shouldn't work... and yet they do.

The question is: how long will it take people to realize and get fed up?

Probably about as long as it takes for him to realize it's just not a problem for most people smile

I write stories! With words!
http://www.asstr.org/~Invid_Fan/

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Re: Walter Murch puts the Kibosh on 3-D

The theaters and distribution companies are smirking all the way to the bank.

Teague Chrystie

I have a tendency to fix your typos.

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Re: Walter Murch puts the Kibosh on 3-D

As I said on Twitter, Murch may be an expert in his field, but that field is not neurology. One can't reasonably consider him the final word on "why 3D doesn't work and never will." Just because he doesn't like or approve of it doesn't "put the kibosh" on the entire 3D distribution industry. He's an Oscar-winning editor; that doesn't make him the Emperor of Movies.

He has a hypothesis for why some people experience discomfort while watching 3D movies in their current form. It's cogent and makes intuitive sense. It also happens to be wrong about its fundamental technical premise.

That 3D is not fundamentally incompatible with the human brain should be obvious to anyone who spends a moment to think: if that were true, why doesn't EVERYONE experience that discomfort? Some people do and some don't. I don't, generally. A lot of people obviously don't or they wouldn't keep paying a premium to watch 3D movies. So the bald assertion that 3D "doesn't work" is nonsense on its face.

The way it was blown into a giant argument from authority with a tone of finality is an example of why I don't like or trust Ebert. He may be articulate and may generally fall onto my side of things politically, but he's ultimately an ideologue, not a critical thinker.

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Re: Walter Murch puts the Kibosh on 3-D

It may be he's like my Dad was- he prided himself on looking at both sides of an issue before coming to a conclusion, but then figured anyone who disagreed with him hadn't looked at both sides and thus could be ignored smile

I write stories! With words!
http://www.asstr.org/~Invid_Fan/

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Re: Walter Murch puts the Kibosh on 3-D

He pretty clearly makes his conclusion first, uncritically accepts anything that seems to confirm it and ignores or rejects anything that doesn't.

EDIT: And just to be clear, I am not a fan of 3D movies. They're never worth the $5-7 premium and I really hope to see the trend fizzle out and not become the norm. But a bad argument is a bad argument.

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Re: Walter Murch puts the Kibosh on 3-D

I have a huge man-crush on Walter Murch, but this doesn't really make sense.  TRON, for example, tried to keep their convergence fixed at the plane of the screen throughout the whole movie.  He's talking like there's one way of making a 3D film, when it's all just experimentation at this point. 


- Branco

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Re: Walter Murch puts the Kibosh on 3-D

I've NEVER had a problem with headaches or any discomfort during a 3D movie and have never had an issue with paying an extra 3 bucks for the 3D, except when the movie was shit, in which case I would have been ticked off anyways.

So I really can't talk on either side of the issue.

ZangrethorDigital.ca

Re: Walter Murch puts the Kibosh on 3-D

I generally like Ebert and worship at the feet of Murch, but yeah, this thing seems a bit trumped up.

Eddie Doty

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Re: Walter Murch puts the Kibosh on 3-D

I'd say 3D was obviously a fad, the way it came and went in the '50s and '80s, if it wasn't for 3D TVs. If sales take off, 3D might be hear to stay.

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Re: Walter Murch puts the Kibosh on 3-D

I guess we'll see about 3-D TVs in the next few years. A movie can keep my rapt attention or gaze, and to some extent, my favorite television dramas. But I find myself multi-tasking with the phone or laptop while the majority of TV content is on. I don't think I'll be trying to immerse myself should a rerun of "Pawn Stars" be on the tube.
I like Murch as well. Especially on that Editing documentary when he edits 'Cold Mountain' from his standing position.
As for the films' themselves, I guess it's just the 10% rule. Usually, the experience pays off when the intent from the beginning is to present it in 3-D. All of the flicks in which 3-D seemed to be "shoehorned" in during post have left me feeling flat. Or they just sucked regardless (e.g "Airbender" and "Titans")

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Re: Walter Murch puts the Kibosh on 3-D

Yeah, from what I understand the process they use to convert a film to 3D in post is similar to the way they make simple 3D matte paintings. They basically take the various composite elements and project them onto some geometry in 3D. A lot of the time it's just flat planes, so you end up with a 3D effect that's more like one of those "magic Eye" posters instead of something that's really 3D. I mean, they can use whatever geometry they want and have that geometry recede into the distance or seem uneven or whatever, but they're not about to use geometry that's anywhere near as detailed as it needs to be to make the 3D effect not look like crap projected onto some basic geometry.

I like 3D and I think in the right DP's hands it could be used to add a whole extra layer of 'depth' (see what I did there?) to visual compositions. I think Cameron had the right idea, I think he just went overboard and had too much crap going on in any given shot. There are some really great moments in Avatar where the depth adds a hell of a lot to the film, in my opinion. The movie just suffers a lot from the same sort of over-indulgent big-budget CGI masturbation that the Star Wars prequels had. It's not as bad, but Cameron is kinda drifting in that direction lately.

I think there's so much hate for 3D because there's really two different fights going on. There's the pro-3D people who go see movies in 3D and the anti-3D people who talk about what a worthless gimmick it is and how it gives them headaches and whatnot. But within the pro-3D group, there are also two factions: The "I want stuff to jump out at me" people and the "I want an immersive experience" people. No matter what 3D movie comes out, you're always going to have at least two different groups of people talking about how shitty the 3D is - and then potentially a third crowd if it's a movie like The Last Airbender that looks like crap in 3D.

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Re: Walter Murch puts the Kibosh on 3-D

I have no interest whatsoever in 3D. I have seen a couple of films in 3D but only because it was the only way to see them at the time (cinema didn't offer a 2D alternative). I personally don't see the point in it but others like it, so fair enough smile

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