Re: Doctor Who is awesome, yeah?

Heh, I wouldn't say I'm on a cliff, it's just sad to see the promise of a "new darker who" go down the drain so quickly. I can understand a transition period, but to so quickly completely abandon the idea of that and go full hog ridiculous, so quickly makes me wonder.

"The third was a leftover Smith script they threw in."

You should write for this show, since that's about the level of caring they seem to have these days.

"You found a script under the couch? Eh, fuck it, throw it in there, who the hell's gonna care."

As for the screwdriver, it's not so much the fact that's "new powers omgz", but the Doctor's whole thing is non-violence and using wit to outsmart his enemies, which is why he uses a bloody screwdriver and not an actual weapon. But eh, fuck it, it can make fireballs and explode shit now, that's cool right?

Also, me and Saniss were talking earlier, and he reminded me of the whole "LET'S GO FIND GALLIFREY" thing from the Christmas special that seemed so VITALLY important to everyone at the time... and so uh...has ANYONE heard even a passing mention to Gallifrey in the 3.5 episodes so far?

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Re: Doctor Who is awesome, yeah?

EDIT: Posts happened while I was typing this, guess I shouldn't take breaks in the middle. This is in response to BDA's reaction to the episode.

Really? I didn't LOVE this episode, but I enjoyed it. More than I did Into the Dalek, which had a lot of good bits but a stupid premise and nonsensical execution thereof. This story felt more like classic Doctor Who than possibly ANY episode since the reboot. If I didn't know it were Mark Gatiss you could have told me it was an old discarded script from the Baker era that they trimmed down and punched up a bit and I'd have believed you.

Peter Capaldi's really getting comfortable in the role, Clara's finally developing something of a personality, and I liked the portrayal of Robin and the Sheriff. The Doctor trying to solve the mystery of how there can be a Robin Hood was enough to hold it together for me. It's not going to go down as an all-time classic, but it was a fun 45 minutes.

My only big problems with it were:

SPOILER Show
1.) Um... the ending was ridiculous. The robot's plan wasn't, "WE NEED TO GET ALL KINDS OF GOLD TO TOUCH OUR SHIP IN RANDOM PLACES!!!" They were actually melting it down to make circuit boards to fix the damage to their ship. I don't understand why shooting a golden arrow into the casing of one of the ship's engines is going to give them the power boost they need to escape Earth's atmosphere.

2.) The Maid Marion bit was too convenient and didn't make sense. She literally just got kidnapped earlier that DAY. Why is Robin moping around like she's been gone forever, and more importantly why was she not with him under his protection? Why is he goofing around with magic strangers in the forest instead of protecting his gal?

Last edited by C-Spin (2014-09-07 14:55:49)

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Re: Doctor Who is awesome, yeah?

BigDamnArtist wrote:

"The third was a leftover Smith script they threw in."

You should write for this show, since that's about the level of caring they seem to have these days.

"You found a script under the couch? Eh, fuck it, throw it in there, who the hell's gonna care."

I'm not sure I understand that comment...I would love writing for Who. I think anyone around these parts can tell you that things like that do happen in the industry, though. Sometimes they become classics (Star Trek: The Original Series) and sometimes they are terrible (Star Trek: The Original Series).

BigDamnArtist wrote:

As for the screwdriver, it's not so much the fact that's "new powers omgz", but the Doctor's whole thing is non-violence and using wit to outsmart his enemies, which is why he uses a bloody screwdriver and not an actual weapon. But eh, fuck it, it can make fireballs and explode shit now, that's cool right?

I guess...but despite being an "explosion" it was basically just a fireworks display, not being used as a weapon.

Not that I'm defending the episode or the use of the sonic in such ways. I actually shake my head at the fact that they even made fun of how the sonic is used now adays in the special ("Why are you pointing it at them? It's not a gun, it's a screwdriver!") but clearly have no intention of changing how it's used. I mean, why bother making the joke in the first place then? Dumb.

Again, I'm merely noting that there are far more egregious examples of this sort of thing. The Doctor blew something up without harming anyone to force a reaction. *shrug*

BigDamnArtist wrote:

Also, me and Saniss were talking earlier, and he reminded me of the whole "LET'S GO FIND GALLIFREY" thing from the Christmas special that seemed so VITALLY important to everyone at the time... and so uh...has ANYONE heard even a passing mention to Gallifrey in the 3.5 episodes so far?

Wasn't there some random BS about how no one would remember the events of the special? Or something? Ugh, who knows. It feels like everything they did with Smith's run was just a convoluted mess and to be honest I'm perfectly fine with them just moving on and starting from scratch -- which they probably won't do.

Maybe the "Promised Land" trope has something to do with Gallifrey. Maybe the Doctor (before forgetting/regenerating) went back in time and created the whole "Promised Land" lore within the clockwork robots so his future self would end up following their breadcrumbs back to Gallifrey. Because of course.

I dunno, my hope is they just drop that shit. Other than a handful of great episodes, the overall arcs/plots/continuity of Smith's run might be better forgotten.

C-Spin wrote:

My only big problems with it were:

  Show
1.) Um... the ending was ridiculous. The robot's plan wasn't, "WE NEED TO GET ALL KINDS OF GOLD TO TOUCH OUR SHIP IN RANDOM PLACES!!!" They were actually melting it down to make circuit boards to fix the damage to their ship. I don't understand why shooting a golden arrow into the casing of one of the ship's engines is going to give them the power boost they need to escape Earth's atmosphere.

2.) The Maid Marion bit was too convenient and didn't make sense. She literally just got kidnapped earlier that DAY. Why is Robin moping around like she's been gone forever, and more importantly why was she not with him under his protection? Why is he goofing around with magic strangers in the forest instead of protecting his gal?

Yeah, agreed on both counts.

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Re: Doctor Who is awesome, yeah?

BBQ wrote:

Dude, that ship sailed LONG ago. And as far as offenses of this kind go, this was relatively minor. In the last episode he unscrews a nut/hatch inside a dalek. In the special there's that long, convoluted way the Doctors unlock an old wooden door, and there are countless examples going back through a lot of modern Who (I haven't seen all of Classic Who, but I'd bet they break the rules, too).

For classic Who it pretty much was just for fiddling with electronic things, or turning screws. They took it away from the Doctor during the 5th Doctor's reign, as it made things too easy for the character (and thus harder to come up with problems he couldn't solve instantly). Sounds like they should get rid of it again.

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Re: Doctor Who is awesome, yeah?

Well... I really, really enjoyed this episode.

Yes, on one hand there are some stupid bits (the golden arrow at the end... really?), yes, the sonic screwdriver is used in ways it shouldn't be (but then, as said before, that sin has been committed for the first time a long time ago), etc.

Now, on the other hand:
- great directing. The episode uses more wide-angle lenses and exaggerated high and low-angle shots than I have ever seen in DW, with some strong lighting choices. Seriously, it could have been directed by Peter Jackson and I wouldn't have been surprised. It might seem a bit goofy at times, but at least it gave some amazing dynamics to it. Great production, too.
- great dialogues. Some very energetic moments between Robin Hood and the Doctor. Capaldi nails it completely, I absolutely loved him - and Clara actually had a strong personality. It's the first time I found her really useful and likable as a companion. The supporting actors are all really good, too (the villain was the classic type of villain cool).

So yes, there were some stupid things in there, but I'd take this episode over the two previous ones any day. Despite the lack of strong hints at the series' arc, this is the kind of DW episodes I can really get behind.

Last edited by Saniss (2014-09-07 20:34:05)

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Re: Doctor Who is awesome, yeah?

Y'all are dead to me.

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Re: Doctor Who is awesome, yeah?

BigDamnArtist wrote:

Y'all are dead to me.

Maybe you'll like us better once we regenerate.

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Re: Doctor Who is awesome, yeah?

As so often, I agree with the bad: the ending was moronic and the screwdriver misused. I'll throw in my own previous misuse: Tennant used it to hack computers and electronics of all kinds in blazing time while Baker had to fiddle with it to open a lock. I'm not a stickler for what it can or can't do as that has been wildly inconsistent since the relaunch.

As for dialogues and direction, yes. Yes, there was energy and the whole thing hung together and had a pretty consistent tone. But, I could also say they found a lovely glade and the castle seemed really castle-y. Let's assume things we don't talk about were OK or at least not deal-breakers for enjoying the episode.

As this is Doctor Who, technical quibbles are basically out. Why do they need gold? What does it do for engines? REASONS. We really can't ask for more. The ending only drives home how bad that can be.

So, I'm all about story with Doctor Who. And I am having problems with Clara. Again. I previously linked a podcast that discusses the ep1 to ep2 problem. Now, there is another:

Episode 1: Clara might not travel with the Doctor. He's changed. The Doctor ditched her with killer robots nearby and she's not OK with that.  A phone call changed her mind and she decided to mull it over with coffee.
Episode 2: They never got coffee. The Doctor ditched her and she had to pick up with her life. 3 weeks later, the Doctor shows up because he says he needs her (not to say 'hello'). Soldiers threaten them. People die. Clara is asked about the Doctor and she says he's mad and he's right. Clara is twice asked if the Doctor is a good man and can't say so. The first time, she doesn't even answer.
Episode 3: The Doctor asks when Clara started believing in impossible heroes and she looks at him to imply he is one. Robin Hood tells the Doctor he can see that the Doctor is Clara's hero.

I took a break before continuing as I can't figure this out.

Maybe this is incredibly fast character relationship development? Maybe she is associating Capaldi with Smith and that means she is getting over what is intended as a bump in their friendship? I just don't know.

As for the plot, this was tired. Worn thin. A Robin Hood episode is not only one of the most common time-travel plots, it's historically inaccurate. I would rather see Prince John represented neutrally. Maybe the Sheriff could be the good guy and Robin Hood is stealing gold from the rich and giving silver and gems to the poor. Robin Hood could have a 'forest hideout' in some caves which connect to a crashed spaceship. And his merry men? Robots.

The show mentioned King Richard. Why not say John is raising taxes for the Crusades? Or that Richard is barely ever in England and he prefers to speak French? A bit of actual history would have colored things in favor of The Doctor saying Robin Hood isn't real. And, it might have been slightly educational.

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Re: Doctor Who is awesome, yeah?

Jp12x wrote:

A bit of actual history would have colored things in favor of The Doctor saying Robin Hood isn't real. And, it might have been slightly educational.

I've been thinking about this episode again today, and I think I discovered a major reason why it just absolute didn't click with me AT ALL.

From the very outset of the episode the Doctor is saying that Robin Hood can't be real, isn't real, this is something he (The time travelling centuries old man we all know who's always 6 steps ahead of the game...mostly) KNOWS and defends to the hilt.

So enter Robin Hood, and blah blah blah banter banter Doctor is confused. Whatever. But the entire episode is so...fairy tale. Robin Hood is exactly the strapping perfectly clean hero of legend, the entire world looks like a movie, the castle is so perfectly castley, Robins outfit is so perfectly pressed and horridly gaudy, the merry men are so perfectly those exaggerated movie interpretations we've seen again and again (That Lute player still thinks he's in a Monty Python movie I think).

And the entire time the Doctor is saying this can't be real. And I have to agree with him, because the entire goddamn universe of this episode feels like a film set. Everything is just so...movieish, and it does it all completely without any sense of irony. And it hits that note over and over and over again, Robin splitting an arrow 16 times in a row, cutting the ropes to go flying up into the rafters,  the banter (ohmyfuckinggodsyouguysalrightwegetit the Doctor has a giant ego this season, only matched by Clara, can we stop hammering that fact every 30 seconds this season?), the TEAMWORK!YAH! bow shot at the end- I mean we were half a gag away from a rousing round of Men In Tights from the Merry Men and a circumcision joke.

But then the episode has the nerve to turn around in the last 30 seconds of the episode after all of this ridiculous cartoony, bantery, movie bullshit and go "Oh no guys, he's totally like a real human with emotions and stuff." But I can't even believe that this is actually EARTH we're on right now, let alone that this is actually some great human with human human-ness that actually lived in our history.

And then on top of that you layer the absolutely in-decipherable rules for the ship/motivation for the bad guys (They need to pour all this gold into a complex circuitry pattern to...seal? the reactor, but it's not enough gold and they need more in order to seal the reactor. So we'll just shoot a gold arrow at the hull and that'll be enough to keep the engines together long enough to get them into orbit...but then it's just gonna blow up anyways? Yah fuck you guys.) I'm used to being talked down to with technobabble, but holy shit you guys how dense do you think I am?

And sure taken one by one, they might not seem like much, but when the entire episode is just wave after wave of condescending, inane, insane bullshit, the entire thing just becomes a joke.

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Re: Doctor Who is awesome, yeah?

Gotta agree with that last post, BDA.

(I still enjoyed the episode though, you maple syrup pancake eating moose)

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Re: Doctor Who is awesome, yeah?

some of my DW covers

http://i47.photobucket.com/albums/f200/vendetta_uk/robotofsherwoodsmall_zps00a5f671.jpg

http://i47.photobucket.com/albums/f200/vendetta_uk/intothedaleksmall_zps6ae715a5.jpg

http://i47.photobucket.com/albums/f200/vendetta_uk/deepbreathsmall_zpsd5307a17.jpg

v

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Re: Doctor Who is awesome, yeah?

and this weeks

Hope its ok to post these

http://i47.photobucket.com/albums/f200/vendetta_uk/listensmall_zpsf4be8580.jpg

v

Last edited by vendettauk (2014-09-14 19:42:52)

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Re: Doctor Who is awesome, yeah?

vendettauk wrote:

and this weeks

Hope its ok to post these

v

Yeah man, go for it.

Although I'm not exactly sure on the why or what for. Are these for anything in particular? And if you're looking for a more critiquey response, you'd be better off in the creations forum, we mostly just geek out and chastise DW on all it's various deserved fronts in here.

Last edited by BigDamnArtist (2014-09-14 19:10:45)

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Re: Doctor Who is awesome, yeah?

I liked a lot of what Listen had to offer, and I was pretty engrossed for the first 2/3rds or so, but it annoyed me that in the last act they kind of actively decided to stop telling the story they started with.

SPOILER Show
I don't personally MIND the way Clara was incorporated into the Doctor's past there, but I did mind the way it was used as a substitute for a sensical ending. I know a LOT of fans who already hate how much Clara has been retconned into Who canon are going to have taco grande beef with this.

I was thinking about this last night and I think I figured out generally why Moffat's era isn't working as well for me as I was anticipating. Moffat has this love for unconventional storytelling, whether it's just eschewing the three-act structure, showing things out of order, or solving/instigating situations with timey-wimey shenanigans. In RTD's era, when these episodes are peppered in among the rest of a series, it's this really exciting break from the form.

In Moffat's era though, the lack of form has become the form. The reason we have our storytelling rules and the reason studios have those script structure checklists and whatnot is because that's the easiest proven way to successfully tell a story to the broadest demographic possible. It's fine to obey those rules, and it's equally fine to break those rules. But the reason breaking them can be so interesting is because it's a break from the norm. With Moffat, the traditional episodes have become the exception, rather than the rule, and without them to contrast the rule-breaking cleverness, it just becomes tired, and the viewer gets irritated.

I think that's what it is for me anyway, in the macro. I also have a problem with the way he writes women and some of his recurring tropes.

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Re: Doctor Who is awesome, yeah?

You know, maybe part of the problem is having the producer and script editor be the same person. Yes, I know, it's the modern way for a TV series to have one show runner who does everything, but that's not the only way to do a series. If there was someone with almost equal power to bump heads with Moffat, we'd probably have a better show.

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Re: Doctor Who is awesome, yeah?

I'd say this was the best structured episode we've had this series, it starts with a mystery which gets resolved by the end. Didn't know Moffat remembered how to do that!

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Re: Doctor Who is awesome, yeah?

I fail to see how the mystery was resolved, Faldor?

  Show
Yes, Clara's what put this idea in the DOCTOR'S head. But that doesn't explain the nightmares and associated phenomenon happening to everybody else. Clara has a throwaway jokey line about the "Listen" on the chalkboard looking like The Doctor's handwriting, and he's forgetful enough to have written it and not remembered... but we SAW the incident, that's not what happened.

And the sheet monster? It can't be a boy playing a prank. For one, it's not remotely believable behavior that a child would stand there for five minutes and not say anything, even after the game was up and the adults were mad. Two, a kid would throw the blanket off and been all, "gotcha, loser!" at some point long before the scene was finished. As soon as he saw they were properly scared it'd be all tee-hees and relieved sighs. Three, when the blanket starts to come down we see some vague vfxery business that couldn't be the top of a child's head.

So yeah, I fail to see the resolution myself, personally.

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Re: Doctor Who is awesome, yeah?

C-Spin wrote:

I fail to see how the mystery was resolved, Faldor?

  Show
It's the Scooby Doo ending, there was nothing actually happening just the old cliche of your mate time travelling and scarring you as a kid.

That's what I took it to mean anyway.

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819

Re: Doctor Who is awesome, yeah?

Listen

I think I started to get my hopes up again, as I am once again disappointed.

The Bad Show

The Plot seems to be that The Doctor is obsessing over the notion of why someone talks to themselves. He's obsessed in the past, so OK. Someone wrote 'listen; on his chalkboard. So, he takes the TARDIS to look for a monster. He finds a monster. He looks for another monster and finds a Pink descendant. He thinks the same monster is outside the Pink base and opens the door. He is obsessed. OK. Then, Clara tells him it's all in his head and he says OK.

That is sh!t. I won't mention details of the retcons, bad fear science, bad evolution science, the Doctor's implied long subjective travel time since last episode, the chalkboard word, or a few other things I am sure would occur to me if I took the time. Instead:

1. This is the big one that ruins the episode for me: there was something under the bedsheet. There was a visual effect in the scene. Maybe the Doctor is a bit crazy and his minor telepathic ability is working very well and affecting people around him? We saw the psychic paper in use to remind us he is a bit 'mental'. BS. Moffat showed us a monster and then told us, the viewers, it was all in our heads. Sh!t. The episode has no resolution.

2. Col Pink. Why did he need to be a Pink? There is no story tie here. Any other person could do the exact same things. The only use I can think of is it reinforces some idea that Clara and Pink are 'destined' to be together (but unless they are a set point in time, they aren't). And, Moffat keeps showing the weaponless soldier as a metaphor for the Doctor and Pink is an excuse to show it again. I get the idea. But, showing it to us repeatedly doesn't make it a theme or make it more profound. And, the same actor? To me, that's like putting a mustache on Clara to play her brother. It's done only for comedy in Back to the Future.

2b.Worst of all, once more Moffat writes himself into a f*cking corner and cuts to a new scene and expects it to be OK. Clara and Pink, holding a unique item, closeup of fingers touching, Pink has just said something about family stories, time travel, and his great grandparents... [Whoa?! Where is this going, I wonder?]   -AND CUT SCENE-           Really? They just walked away from each other wordlessly? The same thing when the Doctor asks Clara if he is a good man. I am sure there are other examples. That is more garbage. Like having a cliffhanger at the commercial and when you come back the story has moved onto something else.

3. Clara is becoming a real B!tch. She has twice made very cruel and cutting remarks to Pink implying he is a murderer because he was a soldier. This episode she claims it was a joke. That implies he is too emotional about his time in service; That if he is traumatized it is because he is weak and a stronger man would be able to see the 'joke'. She storms off from the date when it was she who insulted him. Moffat's name is credited so I blame him. I was US Army and the handling of the whole thing is paradoxically both patronizing and insulting. None of this is really incorrect or illogical. It just makes me like it all a bit less.

4. The Doctor grew up in a place with rattling pipes? On a farm? Slept in a barn? The Gallifrey of pre-2005 never suggested that as possible, to me. And, Moffat doesn't get to say 'wait a minute this is going to get really good'. He's got no credit. It felt like a weak excuse to retcon the War Doctor story. Do you remember those stark Gallifrey halls and high collars? I refuse to believe they also milked goats.

5. Maybe not for you, but for me, we have a huge misstep for the very beginning: 'listen', 'who are you talking to when no one is around', 'breath on the back of your neck', etc. I immediately think of 'The Silence'. The word 'silence' comes up at least twice, I think. Then, in the orphanage, there is a monster under a sheet. In that scene, we have a combination of 'ancient secret monster affecting humanity' (The Silence) and 'monster with a looking at it thingy' (The Silence and the Weeping Angels). Either this is a re-hash of ideas we've seen far too recently or it's something other than what it appears to be. Moffat says it's neither and we imagined it.

The Good:
Capaldi is better. Clearer. He reminded me of a number of previous Doctors, Baker most of all.
The acting is pretty good.
Very nice sets and lighting and cinematography.

The Ugly:
Lens flares.


Invid: I absolutely think Moffat needs a producer or someone to ask him "why?" a dozen times a day. when you have a transient writing staff of 12, the show is likely watered down to mediocrity but adding 1 exec could fix a lot for this show.

Feel free to start flaming me. I don't like Legends of Korra or Gravity, either.

Last edited by Jp12x (2014-09-22 04:55:45)

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Re: Doctor Who is awesome, yeah?

Jp12x wrote:

Invid: I absolutely think Moffat needs a producer or someone to ask him "why?" a dozen times a day. when you have a transient writing staff of 12, the show is likely watered down to mediocrity but adding 1 exec could fix a lot for this show.

There's nothing wrong with a transient writing staff. Classic Who always had writers from other BBC projects coming in to give one story a try (and unrelated scripts accidentally being sent to Who introduced many of their best writers to the show). However, the difference is the person controlling the scripts and the one controlling production were two different people. They would fight over the direction and tone of the show. This didn't always lead to good things, but at least each season was interesting.

Also, the fact you were only doing 6 stories a season (totaling 26 half hour episodes) probably helped.

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Re: Doctor Who is awesome, yeah?

So, Time Heist.  Co-written by Stephen Thompson and Stephen Moffat.

If this is the result of co-writing episodes/bringing guest writers, then I am all for it.

To be honest, going into this one I was a bit unsure. The alien design looked pretty cool but I guess I didn't like the premise of it.

After watching, I rather liked it! I think it holds up as one of the stronger episodes of this series so far. As far as heist plots go, it's not the most elaborate but it's a fun enjoyable plot with some nice twists and turns. Even the ventilation shafts have a bit of meta humour applied to them.

I found the cast rather interesting, I wasn't bored at all and it made me care about our temporary additional companions for the Doctor. Certainly makes me hope that the two make a return at some point later in the series.

Cinematography felt different from previous episodes primarily due to Douglas Mackinnon directing (previous Doctor Who episodes include"The Sontaran Stratagem"/"The Poison Sky", "The Power of Three" and "Cold War". Set to direct three more episodes in this season)

Like any heist film/tv show, a slow motion scene has to take place in some form or another. I'm glad that it was gotten out of the way relatively early, the staging of it jarred with me. It didn't really try anything new with it and I felt it was executed a bit shoddily.

Outside of the story, set and costume design, what I found quite interesting in the cinematography were the scene transitions. Quite styled and I felt it worked rather well!

I felt like it was a step up from the mixed bag of "Robots of Sherwood" and "Listen"

822

Re: Doctor Who is awesome, yeah?

Jp12x wrote:

I think I started to get my hopes up again, as I am once again disappointed.

The Bad Show

The Plot seems to be that The Doctor is obsessing over the notion of why someone talks to themselves. He's obsessed in the past, so OK. Someone wrote 'listen; on his chalkboard. So, he takes the TARDIS to look for a monster. He finds a monster. He looks for another monster and finds a Pink descendant. He thinks the same monster is outside the Pink base and opens the door. He is obsessed. OK. Then, Clara tells him it's all in his head and he says OK.

That is sh!t. I won't mention details of the retcons, bad fear science, bad evolution science, the Doctor's implied long subjective travel time since last episode, the chalkboard word, or a few other things I am sure would occur to me if I took the time. Instead:

1. This is the big one that ruins the episode for me: there was something under the bedsheet. There was a visual effect in the scene. Maybe the Doctor is a bit crazy and his minor telepathic ability is working very well and affecting people around him? We saw the psychic paper in use to remind us he is a bit 'mental'. BS. Moffat showed us a monster and then told us, the viewers, it was all in our heads. Sh!t. The episode has no resolution.

2. Col Pink. Why did he need to be a Pink? There is no story tie here. Any other person could do the exact same things. The only use I can think of is it reinforces some idea that Clara and Pink are 'destined' to be together (but unless they are a set point in time, they aren't). And, Moffat keeps showing the weaponless soldier as a metaphor for the Doctor and Pink is an excuse to show it again. I get the idea. But, showing it to us repeatedly doesn't make it a theme or make it more profound. And, the same actor? To me, that's like putting a mustache on Clara to play her brother. It's done only for comedy in Back to the Future.

2b.Worst of all, once more Moffat writes himself into a f*cking corner and cuts to a new scene and expects it to be OK. Clara and Pink, holding a unique item, closeup of fingers touching, Pink has just said something about family stories, time travel, and his great grandparents... [Whoa?! Where is this going, I wonder?]   -AND CUT SCENE-           Really? They just walked away from each other wordlessly? The same thing when the Doctor asks Clara if he is a good man. I am sure there are other examples. That is more garbage. Like having a cliffhanger at the commercial and when you come back the story has moved onto something else.

3. Clara is becoming a real B!tch. She has twice made very cruel and cutting remarks to Pink implying he is a murderer because he was a soldier. This episode she claims it was a joke. That implies he is too emotional about his time in service; That if he is traumatized it is because he is weak and a stronger man would be able to see the 'joke'. She storms off from the date when it was she who insulted him. Moffat's name is credited so I blame him. I was US Army and the handling of the whole thing is paradoxically both patronizing and insulting. None of this is really incorrect or illogical. It just makes me like it all a bit less.

4. The Doctor grew up in a place with rattling pipes? On a farm? Slept in a barn? The Gallifrey of pre-2005 never suggested that as possible, to me. And, Moffat doesn't get to say 'wait a minute this is going to get really good'. He's got no credit. It felt like a weak excuse to retcon the War Doctor story. Do you remember those stark Gallifrey halls and high collars? I refuse to believe they also milked goats.

5. Maybe not for you, but for me, we have a huge misstep for the very beginning: 'listen', 'who are you talking to when no one is around', 'breath on the back of your neck', etc. I immediately think of 'The Silence'. The word 'silence' comes up at least twice, I think. Then, in the orphanage, there is a monster under a sheet. In that scene, we have a combination of 'ancient secret monster affecting humanity' (The Silence) and 'monster with a looking at it thingy' (The Silence and the Weeping Angels). Either this is a re-hash of ideas we've seen far too recently or it's something other than what it appears to be. Moffat says it's neither and we imagined it.

clap

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823

Re: Doctor Who is awesome, yeah?

Time Heist

  Show

The Good:

  • Lighting and sets are pretty good.

  • Good casting in this episode. Everyone is a professional actor and gives a decent performance, etc.

  • The plot mostly makes sense. There seems to be the bones of a really fun story here. As I understand it, the Doctor wants to save a species so he makes a plan but finds the vault only opens during a solar event and the TARDIS can't operate in the event. So, he pops in a few times before the event to leave confusing directions and unlabelled supplies. I think Moffat took a decent script and Moffat-ed it up. 


The Bad (a lot, but they don't kill the episode):

  • There was no need to rush the pacing. Everything between finding the vault door and being rescued by the presumed dead is meaningless. The devices don't kill and there was no reason to assume they would. The worst rush is that we never see their last-minute escape into the TARDIS. The timing for it was there. They escaped just as flames engulfed the planet. But, we don't get to see it and the getaway is a big part of both Doctor Who and heist stories.

  • There was no need to rearrange the order of the scenes. There are too many smash cuts and flashbacks. I expect it was to create 'mystery' but I mostly found it annoying, as I had to keep trying to figure out where we were in the story.

  • The terrible monster doesn't kill the Doctor and Clara and we are given no reason for why it doesn't when it seems happy to eat the brain of anyone it's pointed at. In fact, it seems denied two meals before it finds them and it should be hungry, yeah?

  • The generic industrial pipes lead to both the vault door hallways and to the isolated personal vault; going to a guard room is breaking the flow of the 'heist', as we basically leave 'step 4', go back to the start, then run back and start 'step 5' with no trouble.

  • In prior episodes, we had very good scenes placed into very bad stories: Clara and the robot, Clara and the Sheriff, the Doctor and Robin Hood, etc. This episode had no great scenes. Here's a great comment by Ebert:  Howard Hawks, asked for his definition of a great movie, said: "Three great scenes, no bad scenes."
    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Howard_Hawks
    http://www.rogerebert.com/rogers-journa … casablanca

  • Is it me or did the Doctor say he hates himself?

  • This is a circular time-loop, right? I thought Doctor Who didn't do those. That's Back to the Future stuff: the Doctor broke into a bank to tell the owner to tell him to break into the bank to hell her to tell him to...

  • The cybernetic guy pulled a Max Headroom. That was dumb in the 80's. It's worse now.

  • The solar event allows the vault to open but it will also destroy the bank? Not a single person has the job of looking into that stuff for the richest bank/woman in the galaxy? Is the event really the day the bank was destroyed and only a suitcase of its contents were saved?

  • The monster eats memories AND the worms eat memories AND the cyborg deleted his own memories? That's too much memory loss for one episode. The cyborg, at least, could have been motivated by information that wasn't deleted memories. The monster could have sensed guilt and eaten brains but not memories (I know it would require a new way for the Doctor to get his memory back).

  • How did getting his memories eaten restore the Doctor's memories? It's pretty counter-intuitive.

  • How did the Doctor learn about the last two members of a species he didn't recognize who exist only in the most private bank in the galaxy and in the closet of that bank's most private quarters? This goes back to the time loop and is sloppy writing.

  • The story tries to make the Doctor look like he was forced into being a crook and the reveal that he is not a crook is really no surprise at all.

The Ugly

  • The episode is organized like a damn fever dream. We skip from present day to a meeting table to guards to the start of the job in just a few minutes. During the job, the cuts are too fast and awkward for my taste. The ending is especially abrupt.

Overall, I expected to want to vomit. This episode was a more enjoyable alternative. Objectively, I think it is actually kind of pedestrian/mediocre. The story would have been better if the Doctor simply said he has a special mission to save a whole species, came up with a plan and then followed it. Being pursued by a brain eater and guards and maybe accidentally touching a memory-eating worm would have been plenty of danger. The last episode, remember HAD NO MONSTER OR DANGER. (Sorry, I'm still annoyed by that one).

Sam Dee wrote:

I felt like it was a step up from the mixed bag of "Robots of Sherwood" and "Listen"

Agreed.



BTW: I really enjoy that clapping GIF.  smile

Last edited by Jp12x (2014-09-22 05:02:27)

I post because I care.
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"Feel free to flame me. I don't like Legends of Korra or Gravity, either."

824

Re: Doctor Who is awesome, yeah?

Jp12x wrote:

Time Heist

  Show

The Good:

  • Lighting and sets are pretty good.

  • Good casting in this episode. Everyone is a professional actor and gives a decent performance, etc.

  • The plot mostly makes sense. There seems to be the bones of a really fun story here. As I understand it, the Doctor wants to save a species so he makes a plan but finds the vault only opens during a solar event and the TARDIS can't operate in the event. So, he pops in a few times before the event to leave confusing directions and unlabelled supplies. I think Moffat took a decent script and Moffat-ed it up. 


The Bad (a lot, but they don't kill the episode):

  • There was no need to rush the pacing. Everything between finding the vault door and being rescued by the presumed dead is meaningless. The devices don't kill and there was no reason to assume they would. The worst rush is that we never see their last-minute escape into the TARDIS. The timing for it was there. They escaped just as flames engulfed the planet. But, we don't get to see it and the getaway is a big part of both Doctor Who and heist stories.

  • There was no need to rearrange the order of the scenes. There are too many smash cuts and flashbacks. I expect it was to create 'mystery' but I mostly found it annoying, as I had to keep trying to figure out where we were in the story.

  • The terrible monster doesn't kill the Doctor and Clara and we are given no reason for why it doesn't when it seems happy to eat the brain of anyone it's pointed at. In fact, it seems denied two meals before it finds them and it should be hungry, yeah?

  • The generic industrial pipes lead to both the vault door hallways and to the isolated personal vault; going to a guard room is breaking the flow of the 'heist', as we basically leave 'step 4', go back to the start, then run back and start 'step 5' with no trouble.

  • In prior episodes, we had very good scenes placed into very bad stories: Clara and the robot, Clara and the Sheriff, the Doctor and Robin Hood, etc. This episode had no great scenes. Here's a great comment by Ebert:  Howard Hawks, asked for his definition of a great movie, said: "Three great scenes, no bad scenes."
    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Howard_Hawks
    http://www.rogerebert.com/rogers-journa … casablanca

  • Is it me or did the Doctor say he hates himself?

  • This is a circular time-loop, right? I thought Doctor Who didn't do those. That's Back to the Future stuff: the Doctor broke into a bank to tell the owner to tell him to break into the bank to hell her to tell him to...

  • The cybernetic guy pulled a Max Headroom. That was dumb in the 80's. It's worse now.

  • The solar event allows the vault to open but it will also destroy the bank? Not a single person has the job of looking into that stuff for the richest bank/woman in the galaxy? Is the event really the day the bank was destroyed and only a suitcase of its contents were saved?

  • The monster eats memories AND the worms eat memories AND the cyborg deleted his own memories? That's too much memory loss for one episode. The cyborg, at least, could have been motivated by information that wasn't deleted memories. The monster could have sensed guilt and eaten brains but not memories (I know it would require a new way for the Doctor to get his memory back).

  • How did getting his memories eaten restore the Doctor's memories? It's pretty counter-intuitive.

  • How did the Doctor learn about the last two members of a species he didn't recognize who exist only in the most private bank in the galaxy and in the closet of that bank's most private quarters? This goes back to the time loop and is sloppy writing.

  • The story tries to make the Doctor look like he was forced into being a crook and the reveal that he is not a crook is really no surprise at all.

The Ugly

  • The episode is organized like a damn fever dream. We skip from present day to a meeting table to guards to the start of the job in just a few minutes. During the job, the cuts are too fast and awkward for my taste. The ending is especially abrupt.

Overall, I expected to want to vomit. This episode was a more enjoyable alternative. Objectively, I think it is actually kind of pedestrian/mediocre. The story would have been better if the Doctor simply said he has a special mission to save a whole species, came up with a plan and then followed it. Being pursued by a brain eater and guards and maybe accidentally touching a memory-eating worm would have been plenty of danger. The last episode, remember HAD NO MONSTER OR DANGER. (Sorry, I'm still annoyed by that one).

Eh, this feels a lot like nitpicking.

I really enjoyed this episode, if only because the bar for Who at this point is quite low for me. With a more critical eye, I'd probably say that this would make for a "solid" episode. I think we can all agree that if this was what passed for a baseline average for Who episodes, that would be fantastic.

So, to nitpick in return: tongue

  Show
Responses to "The Bad":

The pacing wasn't perfect, but I felt it worked well enough and wasn't distracting. Also, the reason why we didn't get a grand escape in the TARDIS was because their grand escape was to the ship in orbit since the TARDIS was unable to be accessed at the time. I didn't notice/care that we didn't get a "jumping away from the explosion" moment, and honestly I enjoyed the fact that the Doctor wasn't able to utilize the TARDIS at all in this episode.

I thought it did a solid job of building the mystery. What I liked in particular is that it didn't make "Who is the Architect" the end-all-be-all of the story, because I think most of us knew pretty quickly it was the Doctor. What they were trying to steal drove the story more, I felt, and that was a good choice.

The Teller didn't kill Clara because Psi distracted it before it could get her. This works on it's own, but especially once you know that it's not hunting people because it's "hungry" but rather eating perceived threats to the bank. The larger threat would clearly draw the Teller. As for the Doctor, it starts to, but once it realizes what the Doctor is doing (rescue mission), it stops. Recall that in other instances the Teller scans before it feeds.

Yeah, a lot of the technical "heist" details were a bit glossed over. I would have preferred a more realistic environment overall, but I guess that stuff doesn't bother me a ton as long as it's entertaining. Leeway for being a tv show that has to work within a budget/location, I guess.

I agree there were no "great" scenes in Time Heist, but there were less bad ones. I would also note that the scenes you listed I wouldn't call great either. So when it comes to "3 great, no bad" scenes...I feel this was still a step in the right direction.

The Doctor did say he hated himself, though I think "hate" was used as a bit of hyperbole (as people tend to do these days). I wish they hadn't made it such an exuberant exclamation, but his dissatisfaction of himself has been a running theme. He's a self-aware curmudgeon and seems hesitant to believe he's a good man. I like the curmudgeon aspect, but I'm not fond of the self-loathing aspect. That said, it does fit with what they've been doing so far.

It's a sort of semi-time loop thing, but Who has totally done that before. As time loops go, this one is rather unoffensive in my view. It wasn't a time loop to save his own life or for the sake of hi-jinks. The loop itself (bank owner's phone call) was just about kicking off the story. I will concede that I don't think it needed the time loop to work and unfortunately I don't think it's "lazy" writing so much as the writers thinking it's "clever". Lazy is when you have to do it to make something that would otherwise not work without it. The Who writers seem to shoehorn things like that into the show to make it more clever or twisty-turny...which is actually worse.

Yeah, I'm a huge Matt Frewer fan, but Headroom was never my bag either.

Eh...I mean, unless the expectation is that whatever level of technology that had existed could predict massive solar storms far in advance, I'm not sure why this would be a major issue.

Yeah, there was a lot of memory wiping in this episode. I thought the Teller was more of a "thought" eater and memories just kind of went with it, but that's just a distinction without a difference. Looking at it critically, it's mainly Psi. That character was used for 3 things: A map, to unlock the vault, and to sacrifice himself for Clara. Basically 2 of those things are easily replaceable, but they kind of needed that extra player to "kill" off. Without him, I don't think the memory stuff would have been too overloaded and the "thought eating" would have felt more different. They probably could have used that 4th person slot for something better.

The Teller scans first then eats. He scanned the Doctor's thoughts, found out what his plan was, so he stopped before he hallowed him out. Also, it's worth noting that the idea of a thought-devouring monster doesn't preclude that the Monster can put back what it takes. Also, it's The Doctor. He's special. lol

Well, that goes back to the time-loop aspect, but it's pretty clear the bank owner told him about the endangered species. He didn't remember them until they get into the private vault because of the memory wipe/lock (which that's a distinction that should have been made clearer, now that I think about it). I mean, I'm not a fan of time-loops in general, but this was a minor offense. The time-loop aspect is used to set up the adventure and that's about it. The Doctor leaving stuff for himself is not a direct part of the "loop" aspect.

Yeah, I think most viewers (I hope, at least) assumed the architect was the Doctor pretty early on. I'm pretty sure I just assumed it by default. I think the "twist" of it didn't connect all that well, but luckily as I said before it wasn't the major focus of the episode. I would have liked it more if they had dropped hints that the Doctor realized it was him earlier on, then had him react to everyone saying how much they hated the guy -- because he would semi-agree with them. That would have been some interesting character work for Capaldi to mine. But, they went more traditional.

The Calpadi episodes haven't been the revelation/reinvention I was hoping for, but when looked at in the aggregate, it does seem like the episodes are trending in the right direction.

I'm already assuming next week with be another annoying episode, as the preview seemed to indicate a "Clara/Pink Sci-Fi Romantic Comedy" hour of hell.

Seriously, the whole Clara/Pink thing is just moronic. They make terrible assumptions about one another, say terrible things to each other, neither is presented as oh-so-attractive as an excuse for putting up with that bullshit *waves to Amy/Rory*, and other than about 5 total seconds worth of screen time where they seem to get along there is NO REASON to believe these two will fall for each other besides the fact that we're told it's going to happen (in the most ham-handed ways).

Their relationship is the equivalent of the elevator scene in 'Attack of the Clones', where we get 5 seconds of Anakin and Obi-Won reminiscing over how they became such close friends during their time together (which we didn't see) rather than getting anything at all to make that connection tangible or believable. This is the laziest of storytelling and creates absolutely zero emotional investment.

I'm going to watch with the (admittedly unlikely) hope that her "I can't keep living the double-life" story ends with her leaving the Doctor for Danny and we start fresh with Capaldi alone or with a new companion. I know the more likely outcome is Pink joining them, subjecting us to their emotionally-empty banter even more...but hey, a kid can dream.

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Re: Doctor Who is awesome, yeah?

  Show
I did find this funny when re-watching the episode. BBC appears to have spent a lot on The Teller's costume and animatronics and ran out of budget for coming up with an item to show a projection that Psi uses:
http://i57.tinypic.com/zjjz8w.png

USBs do amazing things in the future