No.

Unless I misunderstand your meaning. I read your comment as "Some people say it is a masterpiece and thus you can agree even though it does not work for you." This is not how it works in art. Rather, you apply a set of guidelines for a work to be a "masterpiece" and, admit it is a masterpiece (in this technical sense), but you can also note that it does not move you or work for you. But, this is a story. The technical requirements for a masterstory or 'perfect story' may vary.

The mass of the moon cannot change without introducing a source for more mass. No one is shutting off the power grid for entire countries in the middle of the night (who would even see that broadcast?). There is a long list of problems and any of them could be addressed with a single line of dialogue (ex: "It seems to be *BABBLING* from *BABBLE* to grow"). Star Trek TNG had an entire writing team whose sole job was filling in science nonsense in the script. All I ask for from Doctor Who is that the existence of basic science be acknowledged.

Worse, as stated earlier, the episode once more tries to double-feint the audience. The story looks like a monster story but builds to a 'wonderful' and 'magical' ending with a special, fancy creature and la-la-la. Then *Whoosh*, Clara is angry! Surprise!

Yes, it is a surprise. But, I don't understand it. I didn't understand why Clara (who gave her life for the Doctor in the previous series) was ready to leave after his regeneration. I don't understand why she is pissed at the end of this episode. I thought his explanation adequate and a compliment to her for standing up for her principles. I fully agree, she was introduced as a strong, independent, and willful woman. She can leave the Doctor at any time for any reason.

So, how do we go from him asking if he is a good man to her leaving without a warning? He called her his conscience. But, she wasn't upset about that. There was a problem with her boyfriend but that seemed resolved to her satisfaction. She clearly has no problem with nearly dying on a regular basis or seeing people killed when they are standing next to her. The only reason I saw given was she demanded he tell her what to do and he said it was her decision. And that, to me, was out of character for her. But, she has been written so inconsistently this season that I don't even care. If we had a few episodes that ended with Clara glaring at the Doctor's back as he walked away, I would understand. If the next episode begins with another F*CKING pointless cold open and Clara is infected with a mind parasite, I would understand that, too. I suspect that is not the case and will not be waiting to find out.

Last edited by Jp12x (2014-10-10 04:14:20)

I think the main problem comes from the fact that you believe this:

While I (and probably most of us here) think this is just laziness. I really, really do not believe for a minute that the writer made strong difficult choices. It's the opposite. To me, the bad science and inconsistent characters are only the result of going for the easy choices, and the fact that, as you said, many other people liked the episode is to me what proves there is a basis for a great story, and it might just be enough for them. I am not judging them or you - this forum being one of the last places on the Internet where discussions don't end with "No, your opinion is wrong", but I really can't look at this episode and feel anything other than shame, because it's not polarizing work; it's only incompetence.

I don't think they cared one way or other. They aren't choices, they're mistakes or concepts that they either don't care enough to make work, or think we won't give a shit about enough to care about. It's at best lazy writing, and at worst down right insulting to the audience.

As far as characters, the entire problem this season (Hell the last couple of seasons frankly) is that none of the characters have A CHARACTER, they have like 6. And the writers just sort of bounce around between them whenever it suits whatever particular story point they need to hit. Okay Clara trusts the Doctor here because...because we need her to trust the Doctor here great. And Clara hates the Doctor here because... we need her to hate the Doctor here." (And no, just because a character is consistently inconsistently written, doesn't mean they are consistently written. Unless a major plot point of the series is that all of of the characters are Tyler Durden. ")

It's just sloppy writing that shows a complete and utter disregard for the fans, the characters and the show in general.

EDIT:

Actually let me ask you this. What would have actually changed about this episode, on a thematic or character level, if the science had been good (or at least on the better side of what Doctor Who is known for)? Would it had have ruined it? Would it have made it a less bold choice? Is there anything about this episode that would have suffered by including that extra little bit of scientific thought?

Or on the flip-side, can you give me a reason that the science being awful and wrong is actually helping the episode? Is there any reason why it's absolutely vital to the this episode that the science be so mind numbingly, face palmingly wrong, outside of it being a bold choice?

Last edited by BigDamnArtist (2014-10-10 08:14:39)

I had thought about diving into this -- the Moon is an egg? Really? Do we even need to get into how dumb that is? - but this note actually steered me in another direction. There's basically no way to make the science "work" without drastically altering the storyline. You'd have to come up with some other reason that the Moon is breaking apart.

So just brainstorming for about 10-15 minutes, this is what I came up with...not just with that episode, but the overarching story of the season:

For "Kill The Moon", instead of a monster growing inside of the moon, it's some sort of mass increasing bomb. You can technobable that away as like "creates a miniture black hole that pulls in matter from another dimension at a higher rate than from this one" or something similar. Whatever, that's not outside the realm of Dr. Who level non-science.

So our heroes head for the Moon for fun but arrive in the future as investigation astronaut squad gets there. They find out the mass of the moon is increasing (a nice "that's not possible! oh wait it is! technobable!" moment for the Doctor). He of course figures out it's a device of some sort and they go to investigate, heading down a crater impact that leads to underground caves. They run into some booby-traps, which takes out some of the astronaut team to let us know the danger. The Doctor says something's up and he/Clara/Courtney(?) go back to the TARDIS while the team keeps searching.

The Doctor is doing his "working things out" thing, when they hear back from the astronauts that they found the device deep underground in a cavern, so the Doctor locks onto their signal and flies the TARDIS in. He looks at the bomb, has some revelation, notes that it's essentially building up energy and will really "go off" soon, shattering the moon apart and destroying Earth with the debris, then he goes to leave. Clara, obviously confused is like "hey, defuse this fucking bomb dude" and he responses with "I can't do everything for you. I assure you that all the knowledge and skill to defuse this bomb is in this cavern without me." Then he bolts, leaving everyone pissed and, you know, afraid they are about to die. We get a countdown clock thing for dramas sake, but in the end they figure out how to defuse it (doesn't matter how, just that they come up with some clever way to do it).

The group heads back to the shuttle, where the Doctor is waiting. Clara does her "I'm super pissed at you" thing, which makes WAY MORE SENSE since instead of leaving a decision up to her, he basically left her and the school girl to die if they didn't get themselves out of a situation he put them in (note: this fits Danny Pink's "he'll push you too far" warning pretty darn closely, as well).

He tells Clara that he knew they could handle it, maybe with a touch of arrogance that he was helping her become more independent/capable or something. This continues the rift between them, could add depth to the idea that the Doctor feels he's preparing her for their eventual break, maybe with a touch of trying to drive her away.

In either case, he tells her that he left because he realized that the bomb was put there in order draw the Doctor there -- the entire situation was a set up to get the Doctor to save the day. He left because he wanted to see if he could find out who was watching the situation play out. He remembers the Earth history of the event (catastrophes due to the Moon's mass increasing, the the resulting changes in Human progress after, blah blah), but he had no idea that he had a part in it and suspects that someone went through a lot of trouble to make it all happen.

Basically it plays with the idea that the Doctor has sort of invisibly helped shape human progress from time to time with only select people getting glimpses of him...whereas this seems like a glimpse of someone who's doing the same thing to Doctor. This "who's setting up these situations for the Doctor" mystery would be a recurring thing, making him question what things he done in his years of travelling were his own or pre-planned for him to do by this outside agent. It also plays into the "am I a good man" aspect, in that he isn't sure if he's actually causing the issues by being who he is (the Batman/Supervillian dilemma), also it makes him wonder if he's actually good or if it's all just a manipulation. Maybe THIS is what Missy is up to? Maybe it's someone trying either lead him to Gallifrey, or prevent/distract him from find it? Who knows? TUNE IN NEXT TIME!

Anyways.

So, having not seen the episode, here's my question: WHO CARES IF THE SCIENCE ISN'T REAL. None of this is real!

That's true of all science fiction. Even Gravity and Moon feature central plot points that are flatly impossible.

My problems with "Kill the Moon" (and much of this season) are that it's central premise is not just impossible but silly, and I don't care about Clara's problems. I think it's idiotic to have Clara (or Amy before her) gallivanting off on adventures that repeatedly nearly kill her when she's made a life for herself outside the Tardis.

Last edited by Zarban (2014-10-10 16:38:56)

There is something to your point of view: the ideas behind the episode's story are great. The episode itself is absolute garbage.

My answer is yes, absolutely. I know of movies, books, TV shows I can say are great but are just not to my taste. I have no problem with this idea; we all have different opinions and preferences. But if you're asking me "Is Kill the Moon great but just does not work for you?", my answer is no. Something I should have mentioned earlier is that the bad science surrounding the story is far from being the only thing that made me angry about this episode.

Absolutely everything made me angry.

As said earlier, the characters made me angry. Clara and the Doctor are inconsistent in themselves and thus inconsistent in their relationship (and I'm talking here about the entire season, not just Kill the Moon). Clara should be a response to Capaldi's Doctor being a prick. But is he a prick? Sometimes he is, sometimes he's not. I have no idea who this Doctor is. I perfectly know who Eccleston, Tennant and Smith were. I loved them for being so well defined, and so different between themselves. Capaldi's has no particular personality. I want to say he's a grumpy old man (which would be perfect with Capaldi, and the Doctor feeling old after Smith an interesting theme), but when I think about him, it's just not the way I feel. At times he's the grumpy old man, at times he's the crazy time traveler alien, at times he's something else. He's too random. As BDA said, he's what the episode needs him to be. It should be the opposite. And it's the same with Clara. Is she a strong-willed woman who can be the perfect response to the grumpy old Doctor? Not really. Sometimes. Not always. I am perfectly aware that human personalities are complicated and multi-layered, but I look at Clara and see someone different every sequence. Her story with the Doctor is forgotten completely, for the benefit of Pink who we still don't care about after seven episodes. She's so random that Jenna-Louise Coleman's acting only angers me (which it shouldn't; I think she's formidable, and Capaldi too).

And of course, we have the supporting characters, Lundvik and her team... who are complete morons. Moronic astronauts, yes, of course. Please don't ask me to explain why it makes me want to pluck someone's eyes out. Lundvik herself is completely bland. I don't know the actress and I don't want to be a jerk, but unless she was specifically instructed to be so boring people will actually start to fast-forward her every line, there's a problem.

Let's not forget Courtney, who apparently has no issue whatsoever processing the TARDIS, the Doctor and all the space-time thing. Because we have seen it before DOES NOT mean you can dismiss it completely, Moffat. Make your characters believable, for God's sake. Especially children. Oh, and the "Do you really think I'm not special" thing? I almost stopped the episode there (at 2', which could have set some sort of record). And of course we have oversized spiders which don't really seem to freak her out more than regular spiders.

Let's talk some more about the bad science, too. Doctor Who has a habit of showing me crazy things from the future and other civilizations and feed me technobabble until I accept it. Here we spend the whole episode be showed things from our present world we know and understand and have them do stupid things. It cannot be technobabbled. Doc Sub said none of this is real... but in that case, it is. Because the average viewer might not know much about these things doesn't mean you can go bananas with them. The power grid moment was downright idiotic. The idea driving it could have been interesting, but even in a fairy tale I wouldn't buy this.

Last but not least, the visuals. This episode looked especially bad. I'm not asking much, but please, someone explain to the VFX guys that the Earth and the Moon ARE LIT BY THE SAME FUCKING THING.

Owen is right, I reached the boiling point. But this episode worked really hard for it. Robots of Sherwood wasn't great, but the dialogues and setting saved it for me, which it didn't for BDA. There's not a single part of Kill the Moon I would salvage.

Either Moffat and his writer are lazy, or they're actually making a strong choice and completely failing at it. There's no silver lining here. I can't forgive something this insulting.

Last edited by Saniss (2014-10-10 21:26:51)

Okay, I think I'm done, at least for this episode.  I've said my piece, most anything else would be repeating myself. Kill the Moon was a staggeringly good piece of television, I'm genuinely sad that so many of you didn't get what those of us who love it got out of it. 

I'm glad that this is a space where even though when opinions are heated, the discussion can stay respectful (largely) and and the arguments can avoid cheap shots (largely.)

There's a difference I feel between what people mean when they say "it's not real" when talking about sci-fi and stuff like this, and what it's usually interpreted as.

Obviously film/movies/tv/video games/poetry whatever the fuck isn't REAL, those characters don't actually exist in any real physical way in our world that is meangingful, obviously, duh. But that's the pact we sign when we watch or read or listen to any of those art forms. We are granting the author that minor suspension of disbelief to let them convince us that these words on the page or these actors are actual characters doing things that MATTER, to let them convince us they are "real" (real to the viewer/reader mind you).

And whenever we get into a conversation like this, the immediate argument is "it's not real so stfu", which fine if there's a massive tornado headed right for your door and your brother is having an existential crisis over Jacob vs. Edward. Then yeah sure, that's a perfectly valid thing to say to him. But in the context of this discussion, about a piece of art, I think it's a giant cop-out. Obviously whatever we're talking about isn't REAL, we all understand that, but so what? We're having a conversation that exists inside the world of that thing. I mean we're all nerds for the gods sake, whether you like it or not, this is kinda what we do.

So when we say "the giant moon egg baby thing doesn't feel real." We don't mean well that could never happen in our real world, so fuck it! What it means is that in THAT UNIVERSE. Inside Doctor Who, according to everything we've seen before, every giant monster, every multidimensional portal, every living plastic creature, everything. THIS doesn't feel real. It doesn't fit the universe, it's just wrong, and has no place here. It doesn't feel real.

Some of my absolute favorite shows/novels/anything are filled with things that could CLEARLY never exist in "our" universe. But they make absolute sense in that universe, the author blends in them with the reality, the characters react believably to whatever is happening (And I don't mean, like a human being would, characters can exist outside of "what it means to be human", that argument is one of the primary reasons I never understood peoples absolute disbelief that a talking tree and Raccoon could be main characters. Just make them damn characters and have them react like they would to the world around them, and people will buy it. And lo behold they did, and it worked, magnificently.) , it never feels forced or out of place, it's just a part of the universe, it feels real in that universe. And that's why I love it, it's playing with things that could never exist, but it makes me FEEL like they could, it's keeping me inside my suspension of disbelief. Whereas with almost everything DW is doing this season are things that are so entirely out of the realm of plausibility it immediately snaps suspension of disbelief, it never even tries to earn the bullshit it pulls either before or after, and then on top of it all, it doesn't even try to have it's characters (main or minor) convince me it's real. They're all just running around in their own little schizophrenic worlds reading off lines and standing on the cue that leads to the next story point, entirely oblivious to what's actually happening or how they behaved last episode, or frankly 10 seconds ago.

Doctor Who's universe is ostensibly our own in so much as it shares the fundamental laws of our own. People saying scientific gaffs like this happen all the time in Doctor Who... DO they? I can think of plenty of fantastical devices and locations and creatures, but I'm having a hard time thinking of any majorly blatant violations of what our reality is that you can't wave away with technobabble. Except for the TARDIS which gets them to the adventure, in this episode there is NO technology that doesn't exist right now, in this exact moment. So you lose the ability to technobabble your way out of things instantly.

We know gravity exists in Doctor Who and functions the same way ours does. So allowing that the moon has gotten heavier because a creature is now inside it... why does Courtney randomly float, and why is she the only human in the room to do it? The Doctor's explanation is that the moon is unstable. That's a fine explanation for the tremors going on and the collapsing terrain, but that would have NO bearing on gravity's pull.

We know things in Doctor Who are made of cells that work the same way cells do in our universe. The Doctor explicitly calls the spider a "germ," a "prokaryotic unicellular lifeform." We KNOW those can't be the size of a badger. We know if they were they wouldn't look anything like spiders. And they wouldn't leave anything like cobwebs.

The law of conservation of mass exists in our universe, it must exist in the Doctor Who universe. An egg is a closed system and CANNOT increase in mass, no matter what sort of biological changes go on within. All they needed was ONE hand-wavy line about craters in the moons surface really being pores that absorb space nutrients or some bullshit and I can maybe let this slide. But they don't, so I can't. I'm not bringing ANY of my own concrete when the rest of the episode is blatantly moronic.

If you're not willing to agree with me that Doctor Who should at least strive to adhere to the fundamental laws of our reality, then we're never going to agree on anything. I don't just expect this of Doctor Who, I expect this of most of my dramatic fiction. There's a very narrow niche of content that can get away with violating these rules and still expect me to invest.

And even if the science were up to snuff, this would still be a mediocre episode at best, for all of the character and plotting issues brought up previously in the thread.

Last edited by C-Spin (2014-10-11 02:05:26)

Very good points. I think I understand what you're talking about now.