Re: Are Video Games Art?

downinfront wrote:

Even many of the "cinematic" ones are simply exploiting an artificial emotional response for the purpose of entertainment. And there's a law of diminishing returns.

Which I would argue is one of "art's" and entertainment's primary functions. The point of movies specifically and art in general is to produce some kind of emotional reaction from you. Yes, movies are exploitative in that respect, but they're supposed to be. They (nor other mediums) can be dismissed because of that fact.

Re: Are Video Games Art?

I dunno...this whole deliberate thing is a hang up for me.  I believe a lot of great art is accidental.  To me its the end result that matters, not the intention.  Vasquez Rocks is a work of art to me, and that is in no way deliberate.

Eddie Doty

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Re: Are Video Games Art?

Astroninja Studios wrote:

I dunno...this whole deliberate thing is a hang up for me.  I believe a lot of great art is accidental.  To me its the end result that matters, not the intention.  Vasquez Rocks is a work of art to me, and that is in no way deliberate.

Oh, now this I can't agree with.

I don't see art in nature. I see tremendous beauty and awe in nature. But though I'm still struggling with the best way to articulate what "art" is, I would say that I think art does require intention. It does need to be the conscious creation of a conscious agent. It is artificial.

Otherwise the word "art" goes beyond having a nebulous meaning, and becomes a word with none at all, because it refers potentially to everything. (Quite a lot like the word "God," as Brian has pointed out.)

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Re: Are Video Games Art?

Agreed with Mike on all points.

Re: Are Video Games Art?

DorkmanScott wrote:
Astroninja Studios wrote:

I dunno...this whole deliberate thing is a hang up for me.  I believe a lot of great art is accidental.  To me its the end result that matters, not the intention.  Vasquez Rocks is a work of art to me, and that is in no way deliberate.

Oh, now this I can't agree with.

I don't see art in nature. I see tremendous beauty and awe in nature. But though I'm still struggling with the best way to articulate what "art" is, I would say that I think art does require intention. It does need to be the conscious creation of a conscious agent. It is artificial.

Otherwise the word "art" goes beyond having a nebulous meaning, and becomes a word with none at all, because it refers potentially to everything. (Quite a lot like the word "God," as Brian has pointed out.)

Maybe nature is a bad example.  But I do firmly believe that intention of the art we try to create is not always the art we end up with, but its no less art.  So much of art is happy accidents.

Eddie Doty

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Re: Are Video Games Art?

See, I can't go along with that. What you're describing, Eddie, isn't art. Maybe it's beauty, maybe it's profundity, maybe it's applicability, it varies from case to case. But if it's not deliberate, then it's not art. Otherwise whale song and termite towers and solar eclipses are art, and suddenly the word "art" has lost all its meaning.

Beauty can be found. But what makes art special, as a distinct separate from mere beauty, is the fact that it's a thing done on purpose, with intent, with malice aforethought.

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Re: Are Video Games Art?

Maybe not the intention to create what ends up created. But an intetion to create something - some intention of communicating a point, which is the reason the artist created it in the first place.

Last edited by Brian (2010-04-23 21:39:22)

Re: Are Video Games Art?

You know, I can get myself locked up in all these argumentative, hypothetical "proofs" inside of this conversation and agree with basically anything.

At the end of the day, it might just be too recent.

But I don't think of video games as art. Not really. They might be, someone can make a very compelling case. The difference between the least and most artistic games seems too small, compared to the difference between something your kid drew and the Mona Lisa, for anything to be that-much-more artistic than anything else in the game world.

I'll already agree with the dissenters and say there are and can be very artistic games, yes. But I think they're more an emulation of art that has already happened. Once video games find what they're actually good for - not just simulating existing game types or filmic qualities - maybe then can games stretch their legs and become fucking art. Until then, they're just artfully created, by a lot of the same folks who make movies.

I should also go ahead and add now that, I've been thinking about it, and I can't think of a film I'd consider art, either. Beautiful, yes, tangible adjectives, naturally. Same with games. But I have trouble stretching my definition of "art" to include what's going on in the realm of cinema and gaming.

That's just me - but the more I think about it, and I'm not done thinking, the more I think art should be created by an artist, maybe two artists. Not four hundred.

Teague Chrystie

I have a tendency to fix your typos.

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Re: Are Video Games Art?

See, I think that's where our concepts of "art" fail us. The word "art" has this value connotation to it. Like that shit you buy at the craft fair isn't art, but the Mona Lisa is fucking art. But that's bollocks. There can be good art or bad art, or there can be a single piece of art that two different people fervently believe is good and bad, respectively. Calling something "art" isn't a value judgment, even though we use the word that way colloquially. Saying that video games aren't "art" isn't a slam. It's the same as saying that video games aren't pastry. Because pastry, like art, is a thing, and video games don't meet the definition of what that thing is. Is that chair purple? No, it's green. Well, then it's not fucking purple, and no amount of arguing can change that.

Art and games — video or otherwise — are two different things. A game cannot be art, and art cannot be a game.

Now, the technology that permits video games — computer graphics, all that shit — can certainly be used to create art. Hell, human feces and a blank concrete wall can be used to create art. It might not be good art, but it can certainly be art.

But if you're using a computer to create art, then you're not making a game. And if you're making a game, then that game cannot be an artwork, because it's a game instead.

But for like then three-billionth time, if we change our definition of "art," then all bets are off. Shadow's definition — which I have no problem with — is "a deliberate arrangement of elements to invoke a sense of," and then he named some emotions or mental states. We can quibble about what that list of emotions or mental states should be, but that's just working on the details. The crucial word in that definition is "to invoke." Art is that which is done for the purpose of being art. I know that's circular, but if we go with my definition it becomes "for the purpose of being evaluated on aesthetic merits" and if we go with Shadow's it's "for the purpose of invoking" whatever emotion or state we mean. A game isn't created with that sense of purpose; it has a different — and equally valid! — sense of purpose. But it's not art. It's amusement, or whatever you want to call it. It's a game.

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Re: Are Video Games Art?

downinfront wrote:

But I don't think of video games as art. Not really. They might be, someone can make a very compelling case. The difference between the least and most artistic games seems too small, compared to the difference between something your kid drew and the Mona Lisa, for anything to be that-much-more artistic than anything else in the game world.

So now you've added another element to your version of the definition -- that something must be "more art" than other things to qualify as "art," which doesn't actually explain anything since it still leaves the actual definition of "art" unaddressed.

downinfront wrote:

That's just me - but the more I think about it, and I'm not done thinking, the more I think art should be created by an artist, maybe two artists. Not four hundred.

Then a movie cannot be art according to your definition.

Jeffery Harrell wrote:

See, I think that's where our concepts of "art" fail us. The word "art" has this value connotation to it. Like that shit you buy at the craft fair isn't art, but the Mona Lisa is fucking art. But that's bollocks. There can be good art or bad art, or there can be a single piece of art that two different people fervently believe is good and bad, respectively. Calling something "art" isn't a value judgment, even though we use the word that way colloquially. Saying that video games aren't "art" isn't a slam. It's the same as saying that video games aren't pastry. Because pastry, like art, is a thing, and video games don't meet the definition of what that thing is.

They don't meet YOUR definition of what that thing is.

I'm surprised we haven't done this yet, but here's the dictionary definition of art, according to Dictionary.com:

the quality, production, expression, or realm, according to aesthetic principles, of what is beautiful, appealing, or of more than ordinary significance.

Art is not a "thing." It's a quality that something has. It is a value judgement.

Jeffery Harrell wrote:

But for like then three-billionth time, if we change our definition of "art," then all bets are off. Shadow's definition — which I have no problem with — is "a deliberate arrangement of elements to invoke a sense of," and then he named some emotions or mental states.

I would say that his definition more closely approaches a workable one than yours does.

Jeffery Harrell wrote:

Art is that which is done for the purpose of being art. I know that's circular, but if we go with my definition it becomes "for the purpose of being evaluated on aesthetic merits" and if we go with Shadow's it's "for the purpose of invoking" whatever emotion or state we mean. A game isn't created with that sense of purpose; it has a different — and equally valid! — sense of purpose.

Excitement isn't a valid emotion or state to invoke? Melancholy? Loneliness? Desperation?

A video game can invoke any emotion or state that a movie can. You say a movie can be art, and even went so far as to say that it is more likely to be than not. So the onus is on you to explain why a video game which can invoke the same emotion/state/aesthetic merits as a movie is somehow not-art just by dint of its being interactive.

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Re: Are Video Games Art?

Yep. As I said in the post. wink

Teague Chrystie

I have a tendency to fix your typos.

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Re: Are Video Games Art?

DorkmanScott wrote:

I'm surprised we haven't done this yet, but here's the dictionary definition of art, according to Dictionary.com:

the quality, production, expression, or realm, according to aesthetic principles, of what is beautiful, appealing, or of more than ordinary significance.

Art is not a "thing." It's a quality that something has. It is a value judgement.

Sigh. Okay, I can go along with that if that's the consensus. But if that's how we're going to define "art," then I wonder why we bother having "art" as a separate word. It sounds like that definition is just a vague-ing up of existing concepts like "beauty" or whatever.

So if we've defined the question down to "can video games be nice?" then the answer is obviously yes. But suddenly it's not a very interesting question.

So the onus is on you to explain why a video game which can invoke the same emotion/state/aesthetic merits as a movie is somehow not-art just by dint of its being interactive.

A sunset can invoke emotions/states/aesthetic merits too. But a sunset isn't something that somebody made for the purpose of being beautiful or whatever. So it's not art.

A video game isn't something somebody made for the purpose of being beautiful or whatever. Unless it is, in which case I question whether it should be called a game at all. But now I'm just repeating myself, so I'll bow out of this one unless I think of something new and non-boring to say.

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Re: Are Video Games Art?

Jeffery Harrell wrote:
DorkmanScott wrote:

I'm surprised we haven't done this yet, but here's the dictionary definition of art, according to Dictionary.com:

the quality, production, expression, or realm, according to aesthetic principles, of what is beautiful, appealing, or of more than ordinary significance.

Art is not a "thing." It's a quality that something has. It is a value judgement.

Sigh. Okay, I can go along with that if that's the consensus. But if that's how we're going to define "art," then I wonder why we bother having "art" as a separate word. It sounds like that definition is just a vague-ing up of existing concepts like "beauty" or whatever.

As the exchange with Eddie demonstrates, "art" is useful as a separate word because it refers to something created by a conscious agency -- or, to borrow your word, with intention. A rock formation can be beautiful, but it cannot be art if it is a natural formation.

If it was made by people, then it has the potential to be art.

Jeffery Harrell wrote:

So if we've defined the question down to "can video games be nice?" then the answer is obviously yes. But suddenly it's not a very interesting question.

I don't know how you translate "more than ordinary significance" into something as mundane as "nice." A more appropriate synonym might be "sublime."

Jeffery Harrell wrote:

A sunset can invoke emotions/states/aesthetic merits too. But a sunset isn't something that somebody made for the purpose of being beautiful or whatever. So it's not art.

Yes. We agree. High five.

Jeffery Harrell wrote:

A video game isn't something somebody made for the purpose of being beautiful or whatever.

Really? You can throw out "whatever," the vaguest term in the world, and say that video games are not made for that reason? Video games are not made for "whatever"? Then what ARE they made for?

Jeffery Harrell wrote:

Unless it is, in which case I question whether it should be called a game at all.

Again, the problem here is that you are creating an artificial dichotomy (I said distinction earlier and you were right to refute my poor choice of wording there) between form and function.

You're rejecting the depth of experience and design and aesthetics that can go into a game and saying that games might as well not bother being anything more than Pong. If they're more than Pong, they're no longer a game?

Is a movie made "for the purpose of being beautiful or whatever"? If it is, do you question whether it should be called a movie at all?

Is it really just semantics, here? Is this a comic book/graphic novel distinction in your mind?

Maybe the definition of "art" isn't the point of contention here. Maybe it's the definition of "video game."

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Re: Are Video Games Art?

Possibly. But I'd be the guy saying "guess what you fucking nerd, CoD is Goldeneye with better textures."

And once you get right down to it, Goldeneye is Asteroids in 3D.

And that's fine with me. I like all three. (Save for CoD, which I've never played.)

It's no more or less a game when you advance the technology. It's no more or less a game when you explain why you're (apparently) randomly shooting at the computer. But you play all three to shoot at the computer. Make it pretty if you want to, but I don't think the game will be an evergreen the way the Mona Lisa or Moonlight Sonata is, no matter how much I would destroy all of you in Goldeneye.

Teague Chrystie

I have a tendency to fix your typos.

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Re: Are Video Games Art?

I think both sides of this argument need to spend some more time deliberating with themselves of the concept of art versus intrinsic value.  For many, art is value.  I take the stance that since value is subjective to begin with, then therefore the definition of art is subjective.  If its subjective, then video games are art.  So is the Mona Lisa, so is the Jonas Brothers 3D, so was Jake Shears form the Scissor Sisters wrapping himself in a trash bag on stage and reinacting an abortion taking place from the fetus' point of view.  I strongly prefer some to others, but I recognize that all are art.

Eddie Doty

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Re: Are Video Games Art?

downinfront wrote:

Possibly. But I'd be the guy saying "guess what you fucking nerd, CoD is Goldeneye with better textures."

And once you get right down to it, Goldeneye is Asteroids in 3D.

And the Mona Lisa is just a cave drawing with better brushes. If you want to play the reduction game then we can quickly use the argument to demonstrate that nothing is art. Which doesn't get us much of anywhere. 

Just because one example of a medium is (arguably) not art doesn't mean that it is impossible for art to exist in said medium, which is the topic at hand.

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Re: Are Video Games Art?

I don't think it is either, in a vacuum. I'm talking about my flawed perception, and like I said up front on this tangent, it might just be that video games are too new and my notion of what "can" be art is flawed.

However, in response to your going back to comparing games to paintings, I re-invoke my thing about maybe it's the difference between one artist and not four hundred. I'd consider cave paintings art before games as a whole. The matte painting in the background of a game is on a level playing field with a cave painting.

Teague Chrystie

I have a tendency to fix your typos.

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Re: Are Video Games Art?

I'm gonna walk back my previous statement on intention.  I think what I was trying to articulate was desired intention.  I think so much of art has been a result of unintended consequences that it does affect the scope of debate.

Eddie Doty

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Re: Are Video Games Art?

Okay, this is me trying really hard not to sound like a broken record.

Are you guys aware of "The Artist is Present?" It's a show that's going on at MoMA right now; it's been in the news. Among other things, Marina Abramović, the artist, is sitting quietly in a chair, facing an unoccupied chair, during the time that the museum's open to the public. That's it. She's just sitting.

Is this art? By the definition I threw out there — and Shadow's and Dorkman's as well, I think — it's definitely art. Because of why she's doing it. If I sit quietly in a chair at the dentist's office* it's not art, because I'm only doing it out of necessity. But she's doing it for reasons I won't bother to summarize here but that boil down to "for the art."

Art can be successful or unsuccessful. It can be good or bad. It can be sublime — thanks, Dorkman — or it can be pedestrian. It can be brilliant or stupid or anywhere in between. But it can never be accidental. It can never be a side-effect of something else.

* This will never happen, by the way. Dentists' offices freak me the fuck out. My version of sitting quietly in the waiting room is either borderline-hyperventilating or being so high on benzos that I can barely metabolize oxygen.

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Re: Are Video Games Art?

I do not see how anyone here can call a movie art but not a video game. Maybe we should get a consensus of what you "people" wink  think is art or not..

Can paintings be art?
Can movies be art?
Can pictures be art?
Are visual effects art?
Are books art?
Are choose-your own adventure books art?
Can martial arts be art?
Are Rude Goldberg machines art?
Is taxidermy art?


Can you call one movie art and not another?
If you like the Lord of the Rings more than Star Wars, does that make it more artistic?
If someone knocks over a can of paint onto a canvas, accidentally, is it art?
If someone knocks over a can of paint onto a canvas because they want to see what it looks like, is it art?
Does someone have to knock over a can of paint onto a canvas while saying "THIS IS GOING TO BE ART I'M CREATING ON PURPOSE" to be art?


EDIT:

Harrell wrote:

Trowa said something stupid or whatever you said

You don't think 3D "creators" are not artists? People who model things in 3D are not artists? Animators are not artists? The musicians creating the soundtrack are not artists? The matte painters creating backgrounds are not artists? Or do you think they ARE all artists, just when they all work together on something it's not art?

Last edited by TrowaGP02a (2010-04-23 22:57:33)

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Re: Are Video Games Art?

Can paintings be art? Yes
Can movies be art? No
Can pictures be art? Yes
Are visual effects art? Yes
Are books art? Not sure
Are choose-your own adventure books art? Not sure
Can martial arts be art? Not sure
Are Rude Goldberg machines art? No
Is taxidermy art? No

Teague Chrystie

I have a tendency to fix your typos.

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Re: Are Video Games Art?

Can paintings be art? Yes.
Can movies be art? Yes.
Can pictures be art? Yes.
Are visual effects art? Not if their purpose is other than to be themselves.
Are books art? Can be, yeah.
Are choose-your own adventure books art? Can they be? Maybe, but I've never seen one that was. So I don't know.
Can martial arts be art? I think any martial art that's "art" would as accurately be called "dance."
Are Rude Goldberg machines art? If they exist solely for aesthetic reasons, yes.
Is taxidermy art? I don't know anything about taxidermy except "fucking creepy." Abstain. Also, ew.

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Re: Are Video Games Art?

Wow, Teague....you have all the answers.

I love how Martial ARTS can't be art.

Eddie Doty

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Re: Are Video Games Art?

I was answering as a poll, not an authority.

I know no things about fighting, remember. I don't see the art, possibly because I'm ignorant, possibly because I'm not inclined to call them an art like I'm currently not inclined to call video games an art. (Remember, I'm working on a video game right now.)

I guess something worth mulling is, do you all find a difference between a creative skill and an art?

Teague Chrystie

I have a tendency to fix your typos.

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Re: Are Video Games Art?

Jeffery Harrell wrote:

Can martial arts be art? I think any martial art that's "art" would as accurately be called "dance."

Then you possess an incredibly limited and antiquated notion of what Martial Arts actually are.

I know practically nothing of taxidermy, but I know enough to know that I don't know enough about it to make a value judgement one way or another.

Eddie Doty

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