Re: Intermission 019 - Piracy and Fair Use

redxavier wrote:

Trey - I meant genuine criminals as in organised crime. You can bet if it's profitable servers will be set up in Eastern Europe countries where they'll be mafia running the show.

Mafia has become a generic term for organized crime but only because the actual "Mafia" is famous for it.   

But "organized crime" actually means only that, crimes that are planned by groups of people in a systematic way.   As opposed to randomly snatching a purse, or killing in the heat of anger... or having a couple of illegal movies on your hard drive.

The case against MegaUpload specifically accuses them of organized crime, among the charges are "Conspiracy to commit racketeering", and money laundering.     These are the exact same laws used to charge any other form of organized crime, including Mafiosi.
   
If the accusations are true, MegaUpload are "genuine criminals" and were committing organized crime.   These weren't kids in a dorm sippin' Mountain Dew and trading a few kewl Doctor Who episodes.  (It's just their customers who were. smile)

And neither were these folks, who were shut down last year and sentenced this week:  http://www.deadline.com/2012/01/ninjavideo-copyright/

As for the oft-repeated oddball argument that crimes shouldn't be prosecuted because there'll always be more crime, welllll, I just don't buy that as a blanket policy.  wink

Re: Intermission 019 - Piracy and Fair Use

Trey, I liked your comment in the podcast about how Mike/Brian/Teague should be concerned that their peers don't see the work they do as deserving of being paid for. Do you have any theories or suggestions on how that trend could be turned around on a broader scale?

Sometimes Reddit (or the internet at large) gets a hard on for supporting a particular independent artist like Louis CK, but that occasional burst of enthusiasm is far from the norm. Likewise Radiohead might do okay out of a "pay what you want" scheme but clearly as Squiggly quoted with "World of Goo" that doesn't always work either.

I feel like data is going to get shared, and fighting to contain it on the tech front seems almost futile. As long as people feel that piracy is culturally and socially acceptable, they're going to find a way. So how could we potentially turn this wave around on the societal level?

What if watching (or showing others) a pirated film at home carried with it a similar social stigma to not tipping a waiter, or showing up at a party without bringing any food or drinks?

What if you could connect the consumer with the artist/production team in such a way that it felt awkward to not pay them for what you were receiving?

I'm imagining perhaps a public register of 'contributors' to a film or project, where people can electronically pay say $10 and get their name (or message?) on that list for the world to see. Sounds like an unnecessary hassle when most people just want to consume and forget about it though.

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Re: Intermission 019 - Piracy and Fair Use

Wow. If you scroll through some of the tech/news sites out there you'll notice that since Megaupload went down, several other sites have suddenly blocked US users or limited their services to remove sharing functionality.

The comments on every one of those stories is 95% in favor of piracy and these websites. It doesn't surprise me at all, but I find it kinda funny that these kids today are just so god damn adamant that taking whatever they want for free should be their right and privilege as internet users, and anyone who tries to stop them is clearly wrong.

It's like the entire internet is made up of spoiled 10 year old kids.

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Re: Intermission 019 - Piracy and Fair Use

Not to derail the discussion, but you guys brought up Star Wars as the one example of copyright forgiveness, and I wanna mention zombies real quick.

When vampires hit it big in popular culture with Dracula, that was a specific story that someone owned the rights to, so people had to respect that. Nosferatu is basically the same story, but they changed just enough not to get sued. Zombies never went through that. Night of the Living Dead was accidentally in the public domain from day one, so there was no reason for people not to rip off the idea and do whatever they wanted with it. Some of that stuff stuck, but the whole thing was kinda chaotic and leaderless, like the zombies themselves.

I'm working on a book right now, to be released under creative commons, that presents zombies in part of it as a kind of victory for creative freedom, because they evolved without creative limits the way Internet memes do today.

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Re: Intermission 019 - Piracy and Fair Use

This i09 article points out something that massively raises the stakes on this entire issue.   We're now entering an era where actual tangible objects can be digitized and reproduced.  With an internet userbase already somewhat inclined to think "if it's online, it's mine", what happens when 3-D scanning and printing become the norm?   

The i09 article puts a positive spin on the idea - no more annoying transporting of goods, just re-create them locally from data! - which is true.  That's the aspect of digital media that media companies like right now.   Media producers luv the iPad and iTunes  and the Kindle, etc - the upside of all of them is the ability to deliver their goods to consumers at the speed of light.
   
Nike would luv to sell you shoes the same way, just as much as we'd all love to buy them that way.  Want.  Click.  Shoes!

The downside once again is the potential for piracy.   

Welcome to the next level: 
Hey, that's a cool hat/shoe/Star Wars action figure, I wonder if anyone's scanned that yet... 
*Google*  Yep, of course they have.
*Download*
*Print*
Duude, check out the awesome Star Wars action figure that I just DIDN'T buy.  Lemme send you the file...

I'm suddenly realizing the media piracy issue is just the beginning of a very large wave.

And anyone who read the above and thought, "meh, almost nobody has 3d scanners and printers at home", well, I remember when that was true for computers...

Re: Intermission 019 - Piracy and Fair Use

TimK wrote:

When vampires hit it big in popular culture with Dracula, that was a specific story that someone owned the rights to, so people had to respect that. Nosferatu is basically the same story, but they changed just enough not to get sued.

Actually they were sued, and all copies were to be destroyed. It's just luck that something managed to survive until modern day, especially as many film that weren't intentionally burned have been lost to time.

I write stories! With words!
http://www.asstr.org/~Invid_Fan/

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Re: Intermission 019 - Piracy and Fair Use

Trey wrote:

This i09 article points out something that massively raises the stakes on this entire issue.   We're now entering an era where actual tangible objects can be digitized and reproduced.  With an internet userbase already somewhat inclined to think "if it's online, it's mine", what happens when 3-D scanning and printing become the norm?   

The i09 article puts a positive spin on the idea - no more annoying transporting of goods, just re-create them locally from data! - which is true.  That's the aspect of digital media that media companies like right now.   Media producers luv the iPad and iTunes  and the Kindle, etc - the upside of all of them is the ability to deliver their goods to consumers at the speed of light.
   
Nike would luv to sell you shoes the same way, just as much as we'd all love to buy them that way.  Want.  Click.  Shoes!

The downside once again is the potential for piracy.   

Welcome to the next level: 
Hey, that's a cool hat/shoe/Star Wars action figure, I wonder if anyone's scanned that yet... 
*Google*  Yep, of course they have.
*Download*
*Print*
Duude, check out the awesome Star Wars action figure that I just DIDN'T buy.  Lemme send you the file...

I'm suddenly realizing the media piracy issue is just the beginning of a very large wave.

And anyone who read the above and thought, "meh, almost nobody has 3d scanners and printers at home", well, I remember when that was true for computers...

I could actually see it being easier to create piracy-curbing methods that way. "Yeah, you could illegally download that version of the shoe. But you've gotta pay to get the shoe that's made out of this rare material! The Star Wars action figure that you purchase from us is 1% cortosis! Can't get that from the internet!"

"The Doctor is Submarining through our brains." --Teague

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Re: Intermission 019 - Piracy and Fair Use

The days of people having 3D printers in their home will be upon us sooner than you might think:
http://techcrunch.com/2011/09/20/origo- … -for-kids/

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Re: Intermission 019 - Piracy and Fair Use

On the topic of Nosferatu, Invid wrote:

Actually they were sued.

Yeah, story copyright is pretty broad, covering structure and character as well as actual words. Sergio Leone also lost a suit over A Fistful of Dollars being a little too homage-y of Yojimbo.

What astonishes me is that Ben Hecht and Alfred Hitchcock didn't get story credit on Mission: Impossible II. When I first saw it, I thought it was brilliant to remake Notorious with action trappings, but apparently Robert Towne thinks that notorious women who fall for spies, get recruited by them to be double-agent lovers of criminal masterminds, question their sincerity yet feed them information at a horse track, and get poisoned but are saved by their spy handler lovers are stock characters.

Well, at least it sets a precedent for my teen sex comedy My Dinner with Andrea.

Warning: I'm probably rewriting this post as you read it.

Zarban's House of Commentaries

Re: Intermission 019 - Piracy and Fair Use

Zarban wrote:
On the topic of Nosferatu, Invid wrote:

Actually they were sued.

Yeah, story copyright is pretty broad, covering structure and character as well as actual words. Sergio Leone also lost a suit over A Fistful of Dollars being a little too homage-y of Yojimbo.

I stand corrected on the legal precedent of Nosferatu, but I hear Kurosawa never had the rights to Red Harvest before Yojimbo ripped that story off.

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Re: Intermission 019 - Piracy and Fair Use

Zarban wrote:
On the topic of Nosferatu, Invid wrote:

Actually they were sued.

Yeah, story copyright is pretty broad, covering structure and character as well as actual words.

Well, it's one of those cases where it didn't help that they had tried to buy the rights to Dracula, failed, but made a movie based on it anyways. That just put a big target on their back.

In a similar vein, CBS dropped out of talks with the creators of the current Sherlock Holmes BBC show to do a remake, and have decided to do their own modern day version. Not that the idea was original with the current series (there's the movies set during WW II, and failed TV pilot where Holmes gets thawed out in modern NYC by the female decedent of Watson), but still...

I write stories! With words!
http://www.asstr.org/~Invid_Fan/

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Re: Intermission 019 - Piracy and Fair Use

Trey, is there something you're not telling us?

Do you secretly run The Pirate Bay?

http://geeks.thedailywh.at/2012/01/24/p … f-the-day/

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Re: Intermission 019 - Piracy and Fair Use

Let's discuss.

http://www.ted.com/talks/rob_reid_the_8 … _ipod.html

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Re: Intermission 019 - Piracy and Fair Use

That was awesome.

ZangrethorDigital.ca

Re: Intermission 019 - Piracy and Fair Use

Neil Gaiman's view's on piracy.

Granted, there is not a one to one translation between piracy of books and movies and this does not neatly apply to the big movie studios. But I've always thought this was a valid addition to the discussion about internet piracy.

---------------------------------------------
I would never lie. I willfully participate in a campaign of misinformation.

Re: Intermission 019 - Piracy and Fair Use

Piracy has also shifted the emphasis from bands (and creative people in general) selling products to a selling an experience i.e. the live performance. Here in England, authors increasingly earn money by live talks and book-readings and panel discussions and other gigs.
In the 1970s & 80s, bands used to tour to promote the album. Now bands use the album to promote the tour.

not long to go now...

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Re: Intermission 019 - Piracy and Fair Use

Why I love this man...

Eddie Doty

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Re: Intermission 019 - Piracy and Fair Use

Re: Intermission 019 - Piracy and Fair Use

Doctor Submarine wrote:
Trey wrote:

...
The downside once again is the potential for piracy.   
...
And anyone who read the above and thought, "meh, almost nobody has 3d scanners and printers at home", well, I remember when that was true for computers...

I find it astonishing that, faced with a technology that literally eliminates scarcity of goods, our response is to try to re-create artificially the scarcity that existed in order to prop up old business models that are premised on that scarcity.
I have absolutely no understanding of how anyone can think that is reasonable.

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Re: Intermission 019 - Piracy and Fair Use

Reduce scarcity of items people need to live, good.
Reduce scarcity of items people need to sell to live, bad.

I write stories! With words!
http://www.asstr.org/~Invid_Fan/

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Re: Intermission 019 - Piracy and Fair Use

Invid wrote:

Reduce scarcity of items people need to live, good.
Reduce scarcity of items people need to sell to live, bad.

I'm not sure those categories make sense. Many things that people need to live are currently sold by people who make a living selling them. Bakers might well argue that bread-machines threaten their livelihood since people can make their own copies of the bread that bakers make, thereby eroding the bakers' ability to make a living.

I don't find that argument particularly compelling. I totally understand that people don't want the industry they work in to be disrupted, but that's a fact of life. The public benefit of people being able to make bread themselves (at least potentially reducing scarcity of supply) far outweighs the potential negative of some bakers needing to find another way to make a living.

3d printers that can produce a wide range of goods on demand will be a huge benefit to society, just as the widespread distribution of digital goods is. Yes, they will also have some negative impact on some people who currently make their living doing something that is going through a period of economic disequilibrium. That's a shame, but it should not be allowed to hold back the massive societal good that the technology offers.

Last edited by TheGreg (2012-08-22 00:08:40)

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Re: Intermission 019 - Piracy and Fair Use

They'll be good for human society, I agree. Any nation built on capitalism, not so much. That's probably not a bad thing, but naturally you're going to see pushback.

I write stories! With words!
http://www.asstr.org/~Invid_Fan/

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Re: Intermission 019 - Piracy and Fair Use

Invid wrote:

They'll be good for human society, I agree. Any nation built on capitalism, not so much. That's probably not a bad thing, but naturally you're going to see pushback.

I'm not sure why you would assume that capitalism can't function in an environment not premised on scarcity - there are plenty of economic models that allow it to work. Take bottled water in the US as an example - a business that adds enough value to the customer that they are able to sell a product that people can get for free. The producer simply has to add value for the customer, and figure out a way to get paid.

During any technologically led market disruption there are always powerful economic interests whose way of making a living is going away (whale oil sellers, buggy whip manufacturers, musicians etc) who make the argument that the rest of society owes them a living because technology is taking their traditional business model away and it is hard to adapt.

Someone will figure out how to make a living in the new environment, and build a new economic model on it.

Last edited by TheGreg (2012-08-22 02:02:54)

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Re: Intermission 019 - Piracy and Fair Use

I like TheGreg.

Welcome to the forum, sir!

Teague Chrystie

I have a tendency to fix your typos.

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Re: Intermission 019 - Piracy and Fair Use

Teague wrote:

I like TheGreg.

Welcome to the forum, sir!

Thank YOU Sir - didn't mean to dive right into controversy, but couldn't resist...

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